Strubel Responds to Tom Ray

[TheBigA]

You want a poll about how "broadcasters" feel about HD? No problem. How about "people who own and operate radio stations?" Would they qualify as "broadcasters" to you?

Not using something doesn't mean they hate it. It just means they choose not to use it. For various reasons, most likely cost, and I'm sure a few actually hate it. But it's not a black & white, love/hate world.

Just as you assume the public hates HD, when I'm sure the majority don't have an opinion. In this country, if you don't vote in an election, you aren't immediately considered as a "no" vote. Not buying an HD radio has nothing to do with hating HD. It might have to do with the fact that hardly anyone buys radios any more. That includes satellite, internet, and AM/FM. They don't hate radio, just choose not to buy a device that only receives one thing.

Believe what you will, but the evidence is overwhelming: unless you're attached to the teat of some corporate perpetrator of HD, you hate it. Unless you're delusional.

From what I've seen, quite a few of the haters border on delusional.

 

[R.F. Burns]

"Believe what you will, but the evidence is overwhelming: unless you're attached to the teat of some corporate perpetrator of HD, you hate it. Unless you're delusional."

Hey, it's the Summer of 2010 and when it comes to AM radio most people just don't care about it. Only a few owners and some elderly still care about AM radio today. Outside of major markets there is very little local programing heard on AM radio and most of the sydicated material is pure junk!

Saying that the average person knows or cares about AM HD causing interference to their pressious listening experience is highly self serving and just plain wrong. In an age when we've become accustomed to quality audio delivery, when given a choice of listening to a FM stereo station or AM's noisy fading low frequency response audio, in such a competition between AM & FM, AM comes in third place. It's time to move on and put your 78's up for sale.


AM is the gas lantern to today's (energy efficient) electric light bulb. Sorry but that is the truth and no one in the real world remembers or cares about AM stereo. All of the Kahn & C-Quam stereo generators which used to take up rack space are now being used as door stops. Time to face the music and it isn't going to be on AM radio again any time soon.


Canada is brought up hear often concerning their rejection of the IBOC system. Please take note, they are also shutting down AM facilities and moving over to FM where possible. That should tell you something.

Just take a look at the newer portable devices which younger people buy today. Few even come with a AM receiver. AM is nearly dead.

One final point must be made. The AM IBOC system was forced on IBIQUITY. It's really an afterthought, but they'll never admit that.

 

[local oscillator]

I've worked in the radio industry for over 40 years, have owned and operated radio stations for the last 21, and consider myself a broadcaster. If given the options of love, indifference, and hate to describe how I feel about HD Radio, I would have to choose "hate." And, I try to limit being delusional to every other Tuesday.

 

[R.F. Burns]

"Believe what you will, but the evidence is overwhelming: unless you're attached to the teat of some corporate perpetrator of HD, you hate it. Unless you're delusional."

Hey, it's the Summer of 2010 and when it comes to AM radio most people just don't care about it. Only a few owners and some elderly still care about AM radio today. Outside of major markets there is very little local programing heard on AM radio and most of the sydicated material is pure junk!

Saying that the average person knows or cares about AM HD causing interference to their pressious listening experience is highly self serving and just plain wrong. In an age when we've become accustomed to quality audio delivery, when given a choice of listening to a FM stereo station or AM's noisy fading low frequency response audio, in such a competition between AM & FM, AM comes in third place. It's time to move on and put your 78's up for sale.


AM is the gas lantern to today's (energy efficient) electric light bulb. Sorry but that is the truth and no one in the real world remembers or cares about AM stereo. All of the Kahn & C-Quam stereo generators which used to take up rack space are now being used as door stops. Time to face the music and it isn't going to be on AM radio again any time soon.


Canada is brought up hear often concerning their rejection of the IBOC system. Please take note, they are also shutting down AM facilities and moving over to FM where possible. That should tell you something.

Just take a look at the newer portable devices which younger people buy today. Few even come with a AM receiver. AM is nearly dead.

One final point must be made. The AM IBOC system was forced on IBIQUITY. It's really an afterthought, but they'll never admit that.

Uh, typo, make that that here, not hear. I've worked in commercial broadcasting for about 35 years (32 in NYC) and while IBOC might bother you, the avearge person, aka; our audience, couldn't care less, sorry to break the news to you.

 

[Savage]

Once again: when the objective truth about HD is expressed, the response is always "AM is dead, AM is dead, AM is dead." And now the same defeatist argument is trotted out when the emerging interference problems about the FM flavor of IBOC are pointed out. Now the argument is morphing from "AM is dead" to "radio is becoming irrelevant."

It's called: changing the subject when you're losing the argument. This is the HD Radio Board. If you guys want to bash AM radio or the industry in general, why don't you get the Administrator to start an I Hate AM or I Don't Believe In Radio Board? I'd bet the other posters here would appreciate it.

RF, as I type this - there is a widespread power outage in our community. We're perking along with our AM signal "nobody cares about" at reduced power of 2500 on the aux, since the generator is single-phase only and won't run the 25kw Nautel. But we're continuing our 100% LOCAL SATURDAY NIGHT PROGRAMMING with updates on power restoration, putting National Grid people on, and assuring concerned citizens, who have also been calling in. (On our AM station. That nobody cares about.)

Excuse me. While you guys trash what I do for a living on a message board, I'm going back to serving my listeners and advertisers - in the real world. It's a rewarding pursuit, and one which our community appreciates.

You might even call the experience "pressious."

 

[TheBigA]

This is the HD Radio Board. If you guys want to bash AM radio or the industry in general, why don't you get the Administrator to start an I Hate AM or I Don't Believe In Radio Board?

That's funny coming from you. Why not start the "I hate HD" board. Whoops...you already have. Just not here. So often, that's what this board becomes. Not "objective truth," as you call it.

But then again, if we're not hating HD, we must be either attached to the corporate teat or delusional. Isn't that what you said? Someone can't be independent and sane, could he? Nope. I support you and feel you do a great job at your station. I must be delusional.

 

[audioguy]

AM is not without its problems, and they are not minor... but we can argue all day about whether it will continue to be viable and for how long without coming to any conclusions.

Personally, I feel that IBOC on AM has been a thorn in the side of both listeners and owners that should be removed. Maybe in the future there will be a replacement for it, but I doubt it. There are just too many difficulties to overcome: too little bandwidth, too much interference, and too much noise. Analog works well enough. Why mess with it? I notice that they're still using AM for aeronautical communications-- maybe because it is reliable?

 

[KB1OKL]

Tom Ray is not criticizing HD. He's criticizing the marketing.

I find it interesting that no one seems to find it a problem that Sirius has basically bribed the car companies to give their radios preference over any other devices. I guess bribery is OK. The HD folks don't have enough cash to compete. Tom Ray finds that annoying. Ford is supposed to be a partner. They're now doing what the contract calls for. That's what the story is here.

Satellite is not successful because of supposed bribery, it's successful because it promises a certain thing and it delivers. Every car in America could have had an HD radio installed at the factory and that still wouldn't have helped it. It's junk.

 

[Tom Wells]

AM is not without its problems, and they are not minor... but we can argue all day about whether it will continue to be viable and for how long without coming to any conclusions.

Personally, I feel that IBOC on AM has been a thorn in the side of both listeners and owners that should be removed. Maybe in the future there will be a replacement for it, but I doubt it. There are just too many difficulties to overcome: too little bandwidth, too much interference, and too much noise. Analog works well enough. Why mess with it? I notice that they're still using AM for aeronautical communications-- maybe because it is reliable?

A very good point is made here. If the modulation system were really effective, it would be in use for aeronautical comms.
Has ibiquity approached the idea of having iboc (or even full digital) implemented in commercial aircraft?
Well, why not?

This is much like automotive technology where consumers get crappy Mac Pherson struts and little brakes, but the "same" model of car
as used in NASCAR has a "real" front suspension and REAL brakes. Why isn't the crummy consumer version good enough for
"professional use'?

 

[mmnassour]

Every car in America could have had an HD radio installed at the factory and that still wouldn't have helped it. It's junk.

All THAT would do is multiply the number of radio warranty complaints by a factor of 10.

 

[nd2023]

AM is not without its problems, and they are not minor... but we can argue all day about whether it will continue to be viable and for how long without coming to any conclusions.

Personally, I feel that IBOC on AM has been a thorn in the side of both listeners and owners that should be removed. Maybe in the future there will be a replacement for it, but I doubt it. There are just too many difficulties to overcome: too little bandwidth, too much interference, and too much noise. Analog works well enough. Why mess with it? I notice that they're still using AM for aeronautical communications-- maybe because it is reliable?

A very good point is made here. If the modulation system were really effective, it would be in use for aeronautical comms.
Has ibiquity approached the idea of having iboc (or even full digital) implemented in commercial aircraft?
Well, why not?

This is much like automotive technology where consumers get crappy Mac Pherson struts and little brakes, but the "same" model of car
as used in NASCAR has a "real" front suspension and REAL brakes. Why isn't the crummy consumer version good enough for
"professional use'?

Analog version: 2 planes are about to collide within a minute and they're both in a cloud. The ATC sees that they are approaching each other and tells them both to turn right and miss each other. The pilots hear those instructions clearly and successfully avoid a mid air collision.

HD version: 2 planes are about to collide within a minute and they're both in a cloud. The ATC sees that they are approaching each other and tells them both to turn right and miss each other. HD has an 8 second delay. The HD receivers on both the planes drop out as the instructions are being given because lightning struck 50 miles away, so the pilot asks the ATC to repeat. The planes are 30 seconds away from colliding. At T-23 seconds ATC tells them to turn right. The pilots hear it at T-15 seconds and they see each other, but it's too late to avoid a collision. Boom.

 

[Carmine5]

Once again: when the objective truth about HD is expressed, the response is always "AM is dead, AM is dead, AM is dead." And now the same defeatist argument is trotted out when the emerging interference problems about the FM flavor of IBOC are pointed out. Now the argument is morphing from "AM is dead" to "radio is becoming irrelevant."

And what I find interesting is that many AM station owners, in spite of proclamations surrounding AM's demise, are spending big money on their stations.

Case in point is KRKO in Everett, WA. We all know about their towers being pulled down by vandals last September. Well, new towers are up and they are to begin broadcasting at their full wattage. What hasn't been much reported is that KRKO received authorization to increase daytime power to 50 kW and they bought a new Nautel XR series transmitter for that purpose. Plus the station is expanding its staff and the owner has acquired a CP to build a second AM station in the area. Altogether, close to two million dollars is expected to be spent on these projects. And KRKO is not a ratings powerhouse.

Now who in their right mind would spend that kind of money on an enterprise that is dying? Unless, of course, they're making money which KRKO is doing quite nicely.

I do agree with Tom Ray when he said that a key reason some AM stations are dying is due to a lack of community support. And if that is the case, then I think it is incumbent on station owners to do more community outreach to gain such support (which would undoubtedly include more local programming).

But I have to wonder about some on this board. A few seem to have a death wish for AM and if that is the case, then what the hell are you doing here? If you love radio, you love it in all it's manifestations--and that includes AM. c5

 

[TheBigA]

Now who in their right mind would spend that kind of money on an enterprise that is dying? Unless, of course, they're making money which KRKO is doing quite nicely.

It's easy to spend money on physical plant when you don't spend money on talent.

A few seem to have a death wish for AM and if that is the case, then what the hell are you doing here?

This isn't the AM Radio board. It's the HD Radio board. Yet people here have a death wish for HD. What are they doing here?

 

[KB1OKL]

This isn't the AM Radio board. It's the HD Radio board. Yet people here have a death wish for HD. What are they doing here?

Expressing their opinion on an abomination that if it had spread could have spelled the death of AM radio. I would bet that more people here love AM radio then love HD.

 

[Carmine5]

Now who in their right mind would spend that kind of money on an enterprise that is dying? Unless, of course, they're making money which KRKO is doing quite nicely.

It's easy to spend money on physical plant when you don't spend money on talent.

A few seem to have a death wish for AM and if that is the case, then what the hell are you doing here?

This isn't the AM Radio board. It's the HD Radio board. Yet people here have a death wish for HD. What are they doing here?

That still doesn't explain why anyone would spend a dime let alone over a million dollars on an enterprise that is losing money--unless, of course, that enterprise happens to be making money.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that any discussion of HD Radio had to be all positive, all the time. What other ground rules do you want to set before anyone posts here? Besides, I didn't bring up the issue of whether AM is dying or not. I seem to recall that it was you.

 

[TheBigA]

That still doesn't explain why anyone would spend a dime let alone over a million dollars on an enterprise that is losing money--unless, of course, that enterprise happens to be making money.

There are a lot of things I do because I enjoy doing them, or because I learn from doing them, and not to make money. I imagine I'm not unique. I also imagine this radio station got an insurance check after vandals knocked down their towers, and perhaps some of that money is going for other things.

Clearly, these folks have big dreams, and that's great. More power to them. But I have no reason to believe a fringe signal with syndicated programming is going to make anyone rich. There is obviously more to the story. Unless there's a lot more local business in Everest than I'm aware of.

Dan Snyder is an example of a guy who has spent millions, maybe hundreds of millions on AM radio in DC. None of his stations get sizable ratings, yet he continues to pour money into facilities and talent. Then again, he's a billionaire who owns the Washington Redskins and Wizards, and uses his radio stations to drive attention to those sports franchizes, in the way Disney uses its AM stations to promote ESPN and the theme parks. They don't make money, but it doesn't matter.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that any discussion of HD Radio had to be all positive, all the time.

Nor was I aware that my realistic views on radio would construed as a "death wish." I have no "death wish" for AM, and I've never said anything of the kind. My view of AM is that it was screwed over by bad regulations and circumstance. It may not die, but it won't be a growth area either. That's not a wish. If wishing could fix AM, that's what I'd wish for. But wishing won't solve the problems. Neither will the death wish people have for HD. As I said earlier in this thread, HD Radio is the last and final time we will see investment of this size in AM. While I have no love of HD Radio, it will be sad to see the end of companies investing this kind of money in AM. Because money is what will keep AM from dying.

So don't mis-characterize my views about AM as a "death wish," and then turn around and make some silly comment about ground rules. That's uncalled for.

 

[Carmine5]

That still doesn't explain why anyone would spend a dime let alone over a million dollars on an enterprise that is losing money--unless, of course, that enterprise happens to be making money.

There are a lot of things I do because I enjoy doing them, or because I learn from doing them, and not to make money. I imagine I'm not unique. I also imagine this radio station got an insurance check after vandals knocked down their towers, and perhaps some of that money is going for other things.

Clearly, these folks have big dreams, and that's great. More power to them. But I have no reason to believe a fringe signal with syndicated programming is going to make anyone rich. There is obviously more to the story. Unless there's a lot more local business in Everest than I'm aware of.

Dan Snyder is an example of a guy who has spent millions, maybe hundreds of millions on AM radio in DC. None of his stations get sizable ratings, yet he continues to pour money into facilities and talent. Then again, he's a billionaire who owns the Washington Redskins and Wizards, and uses his radio stations to drive attention to those sports franchizes, in the way Disney uses its AM stations to promote ESPN and the theme parks. They don't make money, but it doesn't matter.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that any discussion of HD Radio had to be all positive, all the time.

Nor was I aware that my realistic views on radio would construed as a "death wish." I have no "death wish" for AM, and I've never said anything of the kind. My view of AM is that it was screwed over by bad regulations and circumstance. It may not die, but it won't be a growth area either. That's not a wish. If wishing could fix AM, that's what I'd wish for. But wishing won't solve the problems. Neither will the death wish people have for HD. As I said earlier in this thread, HD Radio is the last and final time we will see investment of this size in AM. While I have no love of HD Radio, it will be sad to see the end of companies investing this kind of money in AM. Because money is what will keep AM from dying.

So don't mis-characterize my views about AM as a "death wish," and then turn around and make some silly comment about ground rules. That's uncalled for.

What I said to you was no sillier than you reminding me that you started this thread. So what?

You still haven't told me anything that relates directly to KRKO. I happen to know someone who works there and I can tell you that the station does make money. The owner, Andy Skotdal, treats KRKO neither as a hobby nor a write off. He is a dedicated broadcaster who served for years on the board of the Washington State Association of Broadcasters.

 

[TheBigA]

You still haven't told me anything that relates directly to KRKO.

To quote you, "So what?" It's one AM station out of more than 6000. It's a non-player in the Seattle market and the programming is a waste. I don't care if he's making money. That's not the point. He's not growing the AM band or doing anything that moves the meters in my view. If you're not attracting new listeners to AM radio, you're part of the problem. I'm much more interested in what CBS Radio has done for the band. They are creating original content and attracting huge audience. That is something worth talking about. Give me some examples of that. Some people investing in new formats that will attract listeners under 40. Making money running syndication is something people do every day. That's not very impressive.

 

[Carmine5]

You still haven't told me anything that relates directly to KRKO.

To quote you, "So what?" It's one AM station out of more than 6000. It's a non-player in the Seattle market and the programming is a waste. I don't care if he's making money. That's not the point. He's not growing the AM band or doing anything that moves the meters in my view. If you're not attracting new listeners to AM radio, you're part of the problem. I'm much more interested in what CBS Radio has done for the band. They are creating original content and attracting huge audience. That is something worth talking about. Give me some examples of that. Some people investing in new formats that will attract listeners under 40. Making money running syndication is something people do every day. That's not very impressive.

This discussion is getting crazier and crazier. You want the last word, you got it. It isn't worth the energy.

 

[Savage]

Huh?? As long as we're challenging people to "provide examples...."

CBS is doing wonderful things for the AM band? Like, precisely, what?? They're creating new content and "attracting huge audience" (sic) ? Exactly where is that happening??

Other than spewing adjacent-channel interference with their entirely-ignored hash-generating AM HD stations and driving away existing analog listeners with pointless noise, as far as I can see CBS isn't doing diddly-squat for AM.

While you're bashing independent broadcasters who are investing in AM like KRKO, you might want to make sure your beloved CBS house is in order. If syndicated programming is trash, many CBS properties are noise-tossing audio dumpsters. Like, for example, KDKA.

Suggestion: while you're arrogantly dissing other posters here and otherwise just arguing for the sake of arguing you should occasionally check a fact or two. There aren't anywhere near 6000 AM stations. There are approximately 4700. (Almost none of them availing themselves of the wonders of CBS Radio's massive failure, HD Radio.)