Strubel Responds to Tom Ray

[stacker]

Zach,

You make a good point. BTW, I was not meaning to throw flame in my earlier post. I just think that if you object to a poster, you need to provide some backup. Not just a contradiction without support.

I have two vehicles with factory radios that both receive the digital hiss on AM. You don't hear the hash that you hear on the sidebands, just an annoying ssssss that never goes away. Now, there are some instances where the sideband hash on any radio, narrow band or not, interferes with the analog signal. This occurs wherever the AM signal reaches the receiver with the sidebands out of phase. This is a natural phenomenon which occurs often in AM reception. Bridges, underpasses, near buildings, power lines...anything that re-radiates the AM signal to cause the receiver pick up a signal in the form originally transmitted. Without IBOC, you would hear a momentary fade. With IBOC, the digital sidebands rush in and make it sound to the listener as if the station is weak. This also occurs in AM directional nulls, which on some stations can be quite wide. Anything that degrades the analog signal turns off the listener, eventually.

Now, on the FM side, a thoughtful article has been written by Dave Hershberger at Continental. You can find it here: www.rwonline.com/usercontrol/article/105256

 

[audioguy]

Now, on the FM side, a thoughtful article has been written by Dave Hershberger at Continental. You can find it here: www.rwonline.com/usercontrol/article/105256

This is an excellent article. This is probably the reason for the harsh distortion I keep hearing on peak sibilant sounds on WFMT ever since they turned on the HD subcarrier. It's really awful sounding at times, but apparently I'm either the only one with a good enough setup to hear it, or else nobody else bothers to say anything. It's more apparent on female voices, in general. Rarely, I hear it in musical selections; particularly those that feature chimes, glockenspiel, etc.

More annoying is the swish-up when I'm out walking and listening to my Walkman. This noon I was tuning around and it seemed that on just about every station, I would get those noisy, raspy digital sidebands when the station would take a fade. This was in the high priced Edgebrook neighborhood of Chicago. I can imagine that if others are hearing that sort of thing, they're not going to listen for long. Of course you can argue that a Walkman is a cheap FM receiver, and what do you expect? But it worked fine until they turned on the dratted digital carriers. From that area, you can just about see Sears and Hancock, and you can't get decent reception.

 

[Tom Wells]

Don Juan has assured us this noise isn't really happening, so we should just go away.
We have no idea what we're talking about and have no basis for making such rash accusations.

The idea that digital sidebands could have any effect on analog decoding is preposterous.

 

[Savage]

Zach, happy to oblige. In 2006, just before our power increase from 2.5kw DA-D 2 towers to 20kw DA-D 4 towers we installed a new Omnia AM processor. Our CE, who had installed IBOC at another station, suggested we try the 6 kHz setting to see if it would improve local coverage in noisy areas of our desired service area (we shoot at Rochester from a site about 20 miles out. With 20kw daytime we put a consistent 5 mv/m to almost any point on the Lake Ontario shore. Field over much of the City exceeds 10 mv/m.)

Anyone could hear the difference on a standard car radio. At the time I had a Pontiac Vibe and a Jeep Liberty, both radios supposedly exhibiting AM bandpass of less than 4 kHz, but the difference was instantly apparent. Listeners and advertisers complained. They said, if THAT'S your new 20kw signal, put it back to 2.5!! We have a live church service broadcast Sunday mornings from a huge Methodist congregation in Rochester where they pride themselves on their music (many Eastman School grads, etc.) They have a dedicated ISDN service for the program and were horrified at the muffled, crappy audio. We also had complaints of lost coverage in fringe areas.

After a few weeks I couldn't stand it any more and ordered the Omnia set back to 10 khz NRSC. Even on supposedly narrowband receivers the improvement was instant. This as about the time two or three other local AMs had gone IBOC, and the frequent comment we got was our station in analog 10 kHz sounded better than any of the HD-strangled AMs. Our station was easier to tune and overcame local interference better. Several months later, when we cranked up the 20kw rig, we sounded way better than the local 50kw NDA.

Of course, since there is no undesired detection of COFDM sidebands on most radios our signal is quieter and "pops out of the dial" much better. Plus it has highs and lows which the IBOC stations lack; we're cleaner with less distortion because there is less harsh, harmonic-rich audio filtering.

So there it is. Proof of the pudding is in the listening. And the reaction from the public. I know it violates the "conventional wisdom" from HD-land but it's real-world experience.

 

[Savage]

Big A: how can it be true that a station is #1 in its market and still be hurt by IBOC? Simple. It's obvious. The fact they're number one doesn't prove that the audience might be larger, if listeners weren't being tuned out by fatigue caused by self-interference. A larger margin of audience leadership gives the station more room for error, changing competitive situations, etc. Even if you're number one, a 15 share beats a 10 share. And so forth.

Don't fret about your status. You're still on "ignore." It was just a slow day.

 

[TheBigA]

Big A: how can it be true that a station is #1 in its market and still be hurt by IBOC? Simple. It's obvious. The fact they're number one doesn't prove that the audience might be larger, if listeners weren't being tuned out by fatigue caused by self-interference.

The key word is "might." Conversely, it just as easily might NOT.

As I've said, there are lots of stations in Boston without IBOC, on FM as well as AM. This station is beating them all.

The FACT is that the audience is bigger than the others, and that's what the sales staff takes to clients. Not "might."

Let's stick to facts, OK? Move on to another argument about why HD Radio sucks. This one doesn't work. Until you can scientifically prove that there could be more listeners to an AM format without IBOC, your theories are just opinion. Do a double blind test. Same station, same format, one day with IBOC, next day without. Track the audience numbers. Very easy to do. Tell me the results. I'll be waiting.

Actually, it would behoove the pro-HD people to do the same. Because neither side had any facts here. I don't have a dog in the fight. I just want the truth. So get started. All I know is that until you can prove to me that IBOC is hurting audience in a quantifiable way, it's all just a lot of bluster.

 

[tomservo]

We also had complaints of lost coverage in fringe areas.

Thanks for the recaps. It makes me feel good to know that even on narrower-band radios the difference can be heard. But this part stuck out to me. I've been led to believe for years that narrowing the audio actually helps fringe listenership. That was something I recall Clear Channel doing several years ago, well before installing IBOC on all their AM sites down here in the south. One by one, each AM CC station would drop to 5 kHz and the effect was immediately noticeable. Punchy, hollow audio, but all the sudden the stations seemed "louder" and "stronger" in the fringes.

Then they put on IBOC and things really went downhill.

 

[KB1OKL]

What are you talking about? The numbers don't lie. They simply fly in the face of a false argument.

I thought you put me on your "ignore" list. So much for that.

I think a famous Ronald Reagan quote is in order here: "There you go again."

 

[KB1OKL]

Big A: how can it be true that a station is #1 in its market and still be hurt by IBOC? Simple. It's obvious. The fact they're number one doesn't prove that the audience might be larger, if listeners weren't being tuned out by fatigue caused by self-interference.

The key word is "might." Conversely, it just as easily might NOT.

As I've said, there are lots of stations in Boston without IBOC, on FM as well as AM. This station is beating them all.

The FACT is that the audience is bigger than the others, and that's what the sales staff takes to clients. Not "might."

Let's stick to facts, OK? Move on to another argument about why HD Radio sucks. This one doesn't work. Until you can scientifically prove that there could be more listeners to an AM format without IBOC, your theories are just opinion. Do a double blind test. Same station, same format, one day with IBOC, next day without. Track the audience numbers. Very easy to do. Tell me the results. I'll be waiting.

Actually, it would behoove the pro-HD people to do the same. Because neither side had any facts here. I don't have a dog in the fight. I just want the truth. So get started. All I know is that until you can prove to me that IBOC is hurting audience in a quantifiable way, it's all just a lot of bluster.

OK, two less listeners in Boston: me and my father. Is that proof enough for you?
It has good ratings despite sounding terrible because of the content.

 

[TheBigA]

OK, two less listeners in Boston: me and my father. Is that proof enough for you?
It has good ratings despite sounding terrible because of the content.

Do either of you report to Arbitron? Wear a PPM monitor? If not, it doesn't matter.

 

[Tom Wells]

OK, two less listeners in Boston: me and my father. Is that proof enough for you?
It has good ratings despite sounding terrible because of the content.

Do either of you report to Arbitron? Wear a PPM monitor? If not, it doesn't matter.

That response is really weak and beneath you , A.

I'd almost think you're having a bad day to make such a personal slap.

 

[TheBigA]

That response is really weak and beneath you , A.

I'd almost think you're having a bad day to make such a personal slap.

Personal slap? Not at all. This is a very professional statement, reflecting the reality of radio.

WBZ is a commercial radio station. Its existence is defined by Arbitron, not by individuals. That is the real world. It's why clear channel stations don't care about skywaves and reaching 32 states anymore. They serve a clearly defined area, and their success in doing it is determined by Arbitron.

 

[KB1OKL]

Actually, it would behoove the pro-HD people to do the same. Because neither side had any facts here. I don't have a dog in the fight. I just want the truth. So get started. All I know is that until you can prove to me that IBOC is hurting audience in a quantifiable way, it's all just a lot of bluster.

The quantity of listeners in the Boston area is two less, I just quantified it for you, next argument.

 

[TheBigA]

The quantity of listeners in the Boston area is two less, I just quantified it for you, next argument.

Once again, unless you carry PPM monitors, your two less people don't register to advertisers. They are buying the #1 station in Boston. Regardless of how you & your father feel.

Your argument is invalid, so move on.

 

[audioguy]

No one's argument is invalid here, BigA. Or to put it another way, yours is no more valid than any of the rest of us.

 

[TheBigA]

Depends on the goal. If the view is "IBOC is bad because I don't like it," that's a fine argument amongs the believers. But a non-scientific argument without meaningful and quantifiable facts will be invalid when you attempt to preach beyond the choir. Most of the anti-IBOC brigade see themselves as scientists. A review of the scientific method might apply.

 

[KB1OKL]

Depends on the goal. If the view is "IBOC is bad because I don't like it," that's a fine argument amongs the believers. But a non-scientific argument without meaningful and quantifiable facts will be invalid when you attempt to preach beyond the choir. Most of the anti-IBOC brigade see themselves as scientists. A review of the scientific method might apply.

I'm not a scientist at all, I'm a disgruntled listener who's tired of a station sounding like it's coming through a telephone, my father got tired of the fades which never happened until they turned on the 30 Khz wide hash machine. My father doesn't know why, I do. I don't think scientific arguments matter to the ordinary Joe who's trying to listen to a station that sounds like krap, he won't care why, he'll just turn the station to another one, my father did that. My father's not anti-IBOC, he doesn't know it exists, nor does he care, all he knows is that his station now sounds like krap and it doesn't come in as well as it used to. In fact he now listens to FM, so IBOC forced at least one listener that I know of to switch to FM, it was not the AM band itself, it was IBOC directly even though he doesn't realize it. Next.

 

[Tom Wells]

As long as we're calling for a strict application of the scientific method, some of you may remember a thread where
Mr. Don Juan severely and unjustly dimissed, repeatedly, an appraisal of FM multipath noise increase.
The thread did get moved eventually to TIO for one reason of another, even as I defended my assessment of
the phenomenon as a "casual" but impartial judge, based on my radio engineering education and experience.

Now, here comes the chief scientist on staff at Continental to suggest that increased noise in incidents of
multipath reception may be the result of iboc sidebands.

http://www.rwonline.com/usercontrol/article/105256

Don, your mike is open. Hello? Don?
Someone cue Don, please.

 

[Savage]

Zach, I appreciate the gracious and measured response. I surmise from your posts that you're not anti-HD, but it's good to have a rational discussion from opposite sides of the controversy.

As far as the Clear Channel bandwidth-reduction experiment on AM goes, I have two comments.

First of all: "punchy and hollow?" I know we're venturing into the Wilderness of Semantics here, but my experience with IBOC-strangled AM is that 4.5 kHz (the CC IBOC analog "standard") sounds more like telco audio filtered through two or three layers of paper towels. The clarity and intelligibility are gone - no highs and no lows. A local IBOC-AM which plays music had a song on some months back which sounded vaguely familiar to me. I turned the radio up and listened intently; it took me about ten full seconds to realize what it was: James Taylor's "You've Got A Friend," a song I played on the air about 2500 times when it was a current hit. The audio was so bad it took that long to recognize it.

Secondly: color me suspicious about the CC "experiment." Since Clear Channel is a major equity investor in iBiquity, I suspect that the experiment likely had to do with assessing whether reducing analog bandwidth would be tolerable when IBOC was rolled out. I can't imagine any other purpose behind deliberately making one's own station sound worse. As such the experiment holds the potential being done to justify a pro-IBOC conclusion; e.g., "drawing the curve and then plotting the data." IBOC is rife with fakery and books-cooking (for example, the revised NRSC "masks") so I would suspect both the methodology and the conclusions until I know better.

I have never encountered a single person - including those working at Alliance-owned AM stations - who thinks that IBOC-strangled audio sounds even acceptable, much less "okay."

 

[tomservo]

In a nutshell, I am very much anti-AM HD, okay with FM HD for the most part and mad that the FCC doesn't take HD interference complaints on both bands more seriously.