• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

The Fall of KGO

DeadAudicy said:
You know, just for the record - I've never claimed to be an expert on anything except my professional career field, which has nothing to do with radio. This is one of a couple of forums I enjoy expressing my opinions in, in this case because I'm a fan of the medium. Since I follow radio, I know a lot more than the average radio listener, plus I've learned a lot about radio by reading posts from the real experts (some of it depressing) - but that's it.

Another forum I spew my opinions on is a political blog, but I've never had anybody there (even people who think I'm stupid and misguided) tell me my opinions are irrelevant because I've never been a politician.

Those who want Radio Info to be an exclusive forum for radio professionals should get together and tell that to the site administrators . If you all agree amongst yourselves, they can make all the users show some proof of expertise...fax them a copy of your union card, perhaps?

To be clear, the term used was expert, not professional. Several times in the above quote, "expert" is in fact implied. Phrases like "I know a lot more than the average listener" deny the writer's own intent in disclaiming whether he imagines himself an expert. And certainly other posts in this thread wallow further in self implied expertise.

Sorry, but I think you're splitting hairs. Saying "I know more than the average listener" does not imply I am claiming to be an "expert." For example, I've been following the recent economic news very carefully. I know from speaking to most of my friends that I am better informed about the economy that they are. That's not a brag, it's just what I've observed. But this does not mean that I consider myself an "expert" on the economy. The idea is laughable, and for proof, you only have to review the performance of my investments lately.

As for my posts in this thread - I believe everything I said - my remarks about Ed Baxter and the idea of having regular talk shows in morning and afternoon drive instead of news were clearly my opinions. They are clearly labelled as such by my use of qualifiers like "I think..." and "personally, I'd prefer..."

Most of us are able to separate the posters' opinions or criticism from facts. If David Kaye states that KGO sounds cluttered, that is clearly his opinion whether or not he is an expert in the field, or whether or not I agree with him. When David Eduardo cites the PPM numbers to address KGO's recent rating performance, I am aware that he is an expert and a professional who is using facts, though I've noticed that other "experts" and "professionals" as well as the non-expert posters like me - sometimes disagree with his interpretation of those facts.

I don't believe it's necessary to belittle people's remarks by implying that they are pretending to be experts, when clearly, they are expressing their opinions.
 
You can all pat KCBS AM/FM on the back when it's been number one consistently for as long as KGO 810! So until that happens everyone needs to shut their bunghole's! Although I rather doubt that is ever going to happen either! It's too late that race is over and KGO 810 is the clear winner! Hands Down!
 
You know, just for the record - I've never claimed to be an expert on anything except my professional career field, which has nothing to do with radio. This is one of a couple of forums I enjoy expressing my opinions in, in this case because I'm a fan of the medium. Since I follow radio, I know a lot more than the average radio listener, plus I've learned a lot about radio by reading posts from the real experts (some of it depressing) - but that's it.

Another forum I spew my opinions on is a political blog, but I've never had anybody there (even people who think I'm stupid and misguided) tell me my opinions are irrelevant because I've never been a politician.

Those who want Radio Info to be an exclusive forum for radio professionals should get together and tell that to the site administrators . If you all agree amongst yourselves, they can make all the users show some proof of expertise...fax them a copy of your union card, perhaps?

First, to continue to split hairs (why resist?), if there is such a crisp and defining boundary within which the word expert resides, I am unaware of it. For that I apologize. In my universe, an expert is someone with a special knowledge in a given field. There is no deliniation in any context how special or how large or exclusive that knowledge may be in order to fit the word. The writer in fact claimed a degree of expertise. That he did not preface his remarks verbally claiming to be an expert doesn't alter that the implication was there.

The original naughty quote by production guy was well considered, and nicely pointed, without accusing anyone of anything.

I don't believe it's necessary to belittle people's remarks by implying that they are pretending to be experts, when clearly, they are expressing their opinions.

Any intention to malign any individual was inadvertant. I sincerely hope no one was hurt.
 
RadioStarOne said:
You can all pat KCBS AM/FM on the back when it's been number one consistently for as long as KGO 810! So until that happens everyone needs to shut their bunghole's! Although I rather doubt that is ever going to happen either! It's too late that race is over and KGO 810 is the clear winner! Hands Down!

I almost feel like this "challenge" (and I'm sure you didn't mean it as a challenge) isn't relevant, let alone doable anymore. Goodness, Rosie Allen just celebrated 25 years at KGO. We may never see that again, but that doesn't mean there aren't other equally talented broadcasters out there (and I think she's pretty darned good at her job).

I'm a little more curious about what KGO needs to do to shore up some of its flank. I think we all agree that overall, this is a great radio station for all sorts of reasons but if erosion is taking place, how do you shore that up? Forget that it needs a different owner or that they need an FM simulcast; agreed, that would probably be a good thing, but internally, what does it need? Does it need changes in personnel (younger hosts?), changes in the clock, in clutter, different morning anchors... what?

In other words, if we're talking about "The Fall of KGO" (a premature notion, I think), what can be done to prevent it from falling further?

Any thoughts?
 
kinetic said:
RadioStarOne said:
You can all pat KCBS AM/FM on the back when it's been number one consistently for as long as KGO 810! So until that happens everyone needs to shut their bunghole's! Although I rather doubt that is ever going to happen either! It's too late that race is over and KGO 810 is the clear winner! Hands Down!

I almost feel like this "challenge" (and I'm sure you didn't mean it as a challenge) isn't relevant, let alone doable anymore. Goodness, Rosie Allen just celebrated 25 years at KGO. We may never see that again, but that doesn't mean there aren't other equally talented broadcasters out there (and I think she's pretty darned good at her job).

I'm a little more curious about what KGO needs to do to shore up some of its flank. I think we all agree that overall, this is a great radio station for all sorts of reasons but if erosion is taking place, how do you shore that up? Forget that it needs a different owner or that they need an FM simulcast; agreed, that would probably be a good thing, but internally, what does it need? Does it need changes in personnel (younger hosts?), changes in the clock, in clutter, different morning anchors... what?

In other words, if we're talking about "The Fall of KGO" (a premature notion, I think), what can be done to prevent it from falling further?

Any thoughts?

That's kinda what I've been thinking about too. You know, when you look at all the other radio stations out there it's pretty obvious that KGO is not just another radio station, but indeed a radio STANDARD. That's not to say that there couldn't be improvements (I agree that an FM station is in order, and they really need to solidify that 10pm-1am slot), but I seriously don't think that major changes are necessary. I tune in to KGO because of their consistently good programming and I always know what I'm getting. So many other radio stations have changed formats over and over in hopes of hitting that ratings 'sweet spot', but that's such a moving target that there's not hope of attaining a consistent loyal listener base. I've been listening to KGO for over 25 years because of their consistency, and though personnel may have changed through the years, the quality has always been second to none. That's hard to find these days, especially in radio.

The 'Fall of KGO'? Hardly. But in all seriousness, if KGO falls, so goes radio as we know it. And that, my fellow radio fans, is not going to happen in our lifetime.
 
It appears that the facts remain that KGO has indeed fallen, at least off its highs after many years.

The realities of one of the worst economic downturns in our lifetimes forcing radio owners, any owners for that matter, to climb into the foxhole and hang on for dear life, combined with the continuing erosion of AM listening has caused this situation. I would argue that whether ABC was still the owner of KGO or Citidel, stations especially like KGO have a tough road ahead.

One causality of belt tightening for a station like KGO has been the losses in news reporting capacity. KGO used to have reporters everywhere newspaper and TV reporters were, sticking a mic in front of the newsmakers and holding politicians accountable. KGO was a news breaker and now has become merely another station reporting the same Oakland deck fire as everyone else. Now KGO mainly relies on their expensive legacy talk line-up to carry the water via a leaking bucket.

In my opinion, even after these economic hard times pass, I'm not sure KGO will be able to pull out of the dive it's in. At a minimum, it will take a large investment in an FM signal, a lot of outside promotion, and becoming a serious player in breaking news, then talking about it with consistent talent. The catch is KGO's owner, whomever it is, will then need to report what the pay-back will be to the shareholders. Return to the hay-days of radio being the primary aural media and all the associated revenues? I doubt it somehow..
 
you mean Karel is gone and KGO IS STILL NUMBER ONE??? how could that be..I mean he tells everyone that he gets the best ratings of anyone? and to think it isn't true.
 
If I read David Eduardo correctly ..and he is one of the most knowledgeable people here..KGO HAS higher..not lower numbers in late night..than it did pre-election..pre-departure of karel...?? Karel is excellent on the latest disco music, apple computers, falsetto sing alongs, and rehashed cnn..but I wasn't aware that his stint on KFI wasn't the most successful thing ever on that LA biggie? Is this true? as far as age is concerned..I don't think anyone gets to be good at talk radio until they've had enough life experience to have something to relate and compare...Karel, as I recall is not exactly a spring chicken..closer to 50 than 40..and I think ..like most of us...getting better as they get older..yes? maybe no? radio has more listeners now than at any other time in history..it's free ...and in a struggling economy..still the biggest megaphone in the world.
 
SFStatic said:
Even if off it's peak, most other stations would kill to have KGO's ratings/billing.

KGO was "off it's peak towards the end of the previous decade.

There has not been a 25-54 erosion if you look at this historically. What there has been is an ageing of the 25-54 listener base without an inward flow of new listeners.

Two generations of Americans have grown up without significant usage of AM. The older group, now in its 30's and 40's, may know a bit about AM, but using the band is not a habit and it's offerings don't outweigh its low quality on the typical consumer radio.

The younger generation just does not use AM at all except, maybe, for some sports they can't get anywhere else.

Because KGO is AM, and the 35-54 demos that enjoy news / talk are FM primaries, there is a loss of sales demos. But this has been a gradual loss that has gone on for many, many years.

KGO's billing is off by about a third since 1999. Of course, we had the dot bomb and the recession to thank for much of this, and the whole market is off by about 28%. But KCBS beats KGO in billing, per recognized sources, and KNBR and KOIT are within the same range. I'd rather have the cost structure of KOIT and its ratings stability and demo superiority.
 
TVradioguru said:
In my opinion, even after these economic hard times pass, I'm not sure KGO will be able to pull out of the dive it's in. At a minimum, it will take a large investment in an FM signal, a lot of outside promotion, and becoming a serious player in breaking news, then talking about it with consistent talent. The catch is KGO's owner, whomever it is, will then need to report what the pay-back will be to the shareholders. Return to the hay-days of radio being the primary aural media and all the associated revenues? I doubt it somehow..

This suggests a problem for all AM news-talkers then, doesn't it? How many ever had the capital to be newsbreakers. In fact, news radio rarely breaks news (most investigative reporting is done in newspapers). It used to be that if you did a story on air and the newspaper picked it up the next day, it was a feather in your cap. That doesn't mean the station doesn't have good reporters --they certainly do, and some of them also know how to use the medium-- but KCBS doesn't necessarily have better reporters. A number of people here have referred to KCBS as an heir apparent to the top spot. What are they doing to get better ratings? Are they spending more money than KGO? Is a less than stellar FM signal really the difference?

In short, what do listeners want? Maybe they don't want AM.

But if the demo that doesn't want AM can get what FM provides elsewhere, via web platforms or their iPod, etc, that suggests the future doesn't bode well for FM. But if your talking about fantasy bucks to deliver the kind of AM station that has reporters everywhere, producers everywhere, their own traffic copter, a huge promotional budget --oh, and an FM stick-- who is willing to pony up that kind of cash. Certainly not the current crop of corporate owners, many of whom seem to have treated radio the way earlier in this decade speculators flipped houses and banks flipped mortgage loans. All three hit a wall and heavy prices are being paid as a result. Now what?

I have a hard time believing that listeners don't listen to KGO because they don't listen to AM. No one has said that directly but to me, that's reminiscent of the PD who says, "Don't mention the competition's call letters; that's giving them free advertising." Yes, because listeners are too stupid to know there's another station in town and if you don't mention it, they won't know about it? Come on. Maybe they're not listening to KGO because they're just not into KGO. What does KGO have to do to get those listeners to be into KGO? Surely it's not, "simulcast on an FM," because if that's it, that's a no brainer.

As one poster said, the hosts have to have lived life a little to comment on life's issues; must listeners do the same? I heard Ronn Owens mention some Las Vegas station getting in hot water because their morning show pulled what turned out to be a controversial April Fools prank. I don't question the topic but his listeners --KGO's listeners-- may be in the wrong ball park to play this in. They're getting their news from a station like KGO and soon enough someone will ask (as someone did), "Who the hell gets their news from a CHR station?" Would that be younger listeners who don't listen to KGO... because they're younger?

I also wonder if there's a demographic gap. Baby boomers are the largest population block in the country. What's the make-up of Gen X and Gen Y listeners who currently "won't listen to AM"? Will that change when those generations age and will they then start tuning into KGO because they'll care less about the frequency and more about the essential product KGO provides: Compelling talk radio?

Sorry for the rambling... Perhaps there are several things to chew on in all that.
 
kinetic said:
I'm a little more curious about what KGO needs to do to shore up some of its flank.

FM. That's it. FM. Otherwise it's excellent. I don't happen to like some hosts, but when I listen I do hear callers from various age and ethnic ranges, so it's not missing people. It's just that the listeners overall are starting to miss the younger folks. Look at KCBS. They gained a point by adding the FM. That's a great increase in this market of 75 stations.

I feel that KGO could blow away lots of competition by getting an LMA on one or two FM stations. Yeah, they don't have the money to buy a Class B in SF or SJ, but that isn't to say that they can't at least start on the FM path by LMAing a couple stations out there and at least start to reach the FM listeners.
 
coppersmom said:
you mean Karel is gone and KGO IS STILL NUMBER ONE??? how could that be..I mean he tells everyone that he gets the best ratings of anyone? and to think it isn't true. ... KGO HAS higher..not lower numbers in late night ... pre-departure of karel...?? Karel is excellent on the latest disco music, apple computers, falsetto sing alongs, and rehashed cnn..but I wasn't aware that his stint on KFI wasn't the most successful thing ever on that LA biggie? Is this true?

So, ummm, I'm guessing you're not a Karel fan, right? Am I close? ::)

Did you have the opportunity to meet him at any point when you were both employed at 900 Front Street?

Anyway, this is all a moo point, as Joey Tribbiani would say: the problem has been solved and Citadel is back on the right track:

"ABC Radio Networks has changed its name to Citadel Media. The new name represents the company’s dedication to connecting audiences with advertisers across multiple platforms..."

http://www.rbr.com/radio/13788.html

Yeah, that'll fix EVERYTHING...
 
kinetic said:
I also wonder if there's a demographic gap. Baby boomers are the largest population block in the country. What's the make-up of Gen X and Gen Y listeners who currently "won't listen to AM"? Will that change when those generations age and will they then start tuning into KGO because they'll care less about the frequency and more about the essential product KGO provides: Compelling talk radio?

Were KGO to add an FM simulcast, it would find the 35-54 listenership would increase dramatically.

I say this because other AMs that have done this... and even ones that have moved totally to FM... or start-ups on FM only... have found the same thing, uniformly, universally.

Indianapolis, Phoenix, Jacksonville, Dayton, Minneapolis, New Orleans, Tallahassee, Salt Lake City, Seattle, Charleston (SC), El Paso, Orlando, Augusta, Battle Creek, Bangor, Cape Cod, Biloxi, Akron, Myrtle Beech, Knoxville, Pittsburgh, Nashville, Little Rock, Madison, Laurel, Boston, Providence, Tucson, etc,. etc.

The 35-54 demo, which will listen to the same content on FM, will not listen much or at all on AM.
 
>>Were KGO to add an FM simulcast, it would find the 35-54 listenership would increase dramatically>>

They will do it. It's just a matter of time.
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom