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The Inventor Didn't Plan On This...

Savage said:
Well, jeepers, thanks for the tardy admission that HD Radio isn't the fix for whatever problems the radio industry has.

Bob, people of the negative pursuasion post this all the time. Where are you finding this is being said?

To me, this is another one of those anti urban ledgends like Supe' posted elsewhere. Who has ever claimed "HD Radio is the fix for whatever problems the radio industry has".

It's getting had to discuss anything here without someone just plain making things up.

Clouseau
 
Kindly open your sophistry hymnal to Reply #15, this thread.

Quoting Savage: "The audience has voted with its feet when it comes to HD Radio."

BigA spat back: "FINE. YOU WIN." (emphasis added.) "That doesn't mean the audience isn't going someplace else to get what they want....you can win the battle and lose the war. Right now, radio is losing the war."

Whereupon the discussion turned to how, even with HD Radio on the scene amid unprecedented, record on-air promotion and forcible hype ongoing since 2002, HD has utterly failed to prevent the erosion of existing audiences with no demonstrable indication that this might change. (Which is absolutely beyond dispute.)

You can take back that "making stuff up" accusation any time you want, Inspector.
 
Savage said:
BigA spat back: "FINE. YOU WIN." (emphasis added.)

Don't read to much into that. I just don't care to argue with you any more.

Also, I have NEVER claimed HD radio is a fix for anything.
 
Savage said:
Kindly open your sophistry hymnal to Reply #15, this thread.

<Snip>... "FINE. YOU WIN." (emphasis added.) "That doesn't mean the audience isn't going someplace else to get what they want....you can win the battle and lose the war. Right now, radio is losing the war."

Uh.. OK. I guess I was looking for a declaration from someone, somewhere that HD radio woull fix all that is wrong with radio. I'm a little lost as to where that is in this or any other thread.

You can take back that "making stuff up" accusation any time you want, Inspector.

If you see that declaration somehere in here then I apologise and take it back. Clearly you see it out there somewhere. Perhaps, in time, I too will see it.

I can only hope. :)

Clouseau
 
And now, boys and girls, we witness the debate techniques endlessly repeated by HD promoters on this board (and elsewhere, from what I've seen and read.)

Sophistry. Hairsplitting. Endless parsing of previous posts nobody recalls, accurately or otherwise. Semantics. Changing the subject.

And then, when the frustration sets in from confronting undeniable facts (such as the dismal failure of HD Radio to date, as a tiny example at least tangentially related to the topic of this board and thread):

Ad hominem attacks. Frequently followed by a petulant and childish exit after tossing a final insult over the shoulder.
 
Savage said:
And now, boys and girls, we witness the debate techniques endlessly repeated by HD promoters on this board (and elsewhere, from what I've seen and read.)

Sophistry. Hairsplitting. Endless parsing of previous posts nobody recalls, accurately or otherwise. Semantics. Changing the subject.

And then, when the frustration sets in from confronting undeniable facts (such as the dismal failure of HD Radio to date, as a tiny example at least tangentially related to the topic of this board and thread):

Ad hominem attacks. Frequently followed by a petulant and childish exit after tossing a final insult over the shoulder.
Me thinks perhaps all involved in this thread should take a deep breath.

That said, It's pretty clear to me that more choices equals more listeners. Let's carry it to the ultimate extreme.

If we had one only one station avialable in every market, would there be more or less total listeners than there are today?

If we had only "2" stations in every market, would there be more or less listeners than there are today? Would there be more total listeners than there was with only one station?

Lather, Rinse, repeat. More choices should translate to more listeners. Is there really any disagreement with this?

Clouseau
 
Savage said:
And now, boys and girls, we witness the debate techniques endlessly repeated by HD promoters on this board (and elsewhere, from what I've seen and read.)

Which is why I, who have no dog in the fight, simply say, "Fine, you win."

Remember what I said about winning the battle and losing the war.
 
clouseau said:
That said, It's pretty clear to me that more choices equals more listeners.

As I said earlier, it doesn't matter. The fact is there WILL be more choices. The only issue is, as a broadcaster, how much of the share do you want to own?

I'm reminded of the soft drink aisle in the grocery store. Coke keeps on putting out new products. But there's only so much space on the grocery shelf. Where do the new customers come from? It doesn't matter, as long as you grow your share. So if your job is to accumulate audience, you do it using every tool in the arsenal. And if, along the way, you lose some Coke customers to One or Diet Coke or even Sprite, it doesn't matter. All the money goes in the same wallet.
 
Your Coke example is a good one. This TV example is another. Faced with escalating choices, look at NBC Universal. First NBC... Then Telemundo, CNBC, America's Talking (Killed for), MSNBC, Bravo, USA, Sci Fi, and recently The Weather Channel. Do all of these take viewers from NBC? Yes. But if you don't do it someone else will. They are still YOUR viewers.

To me, I don't get the whole "Where is the audience going to come from" thing. That business model strikes me as similar to the record company business model. And as far as I can tell, that's not working real well right now. Do I want to deal with all these choices? Not really. BUt I'd rather do that then have them fufilled elsewhere and lose the revenue altogether.

Clouseau
 
Perhaps my experience is different. Our little station provides a service and format that has never really been available in our area. That's despite the fact that there are 34+ stations most people can receive, many of which sound more or less the same. My station is not all that inventive, but it stands out on the dial, because we are doing what nobody else has tried. Doing something the other guys aren’t is a well-proven business strategy. It usually works, not just in radio, but also in many endeavors.

I continually have listeners tell me that they had "given up" on radio. They simply never listen to radio at all. Now they listen to my peanut-whistle station. That isn't hurting anybody in radio. In fact, it is helping the industry over-all, by bringing people back to radio. Most of our listeners are not at eth expense of other stations. So far, HD has missed that idea; despite the fact that it is one of the few real “features” the service has to offer to the average listener.

HD made the promise that it would bring new and compelling formats to the dial. I have to admit that I've heard a few HD-2’s that were unique and unusual. But they are in the minority. For the most part the HD-2's are clones of their analog parents, usually just devoid of any real talent. I don't se how anyone can be very surprised that they are not making big inroads.
 
Chuck said:
Perhaps my experience is different. Our little station provides a service and format that has never really been available in our area. That's despite the fact that there are 34+ stations most people can receive, many of which sound more or less the same. My station is not all that inventive, but it stands out on the dial, because we are doing what nobody else has tried. Doing something the other guys aren’t is a well-proven business strategy. It usually works, not just in radio, but also in many endeavors.

I continually have listeners tell me that they had "given up" on radio. They simply never listen to radio at all. Now they listen to my peanut-whistle station. That isn't hurting anybody in radio. In fact, it is helping the industry over-all, by bringing people back to radio. Most of our listeners are not at eth expense of other stations. So far, HD has missed that idea; despite the fact that it is one of the few real “features” the service has to offer to the average listener.

HD made the promise that it would bring new and compelling formats to the dial. I have to admit that I've heard a few HD-2’s that were unique and unusual. But they are in the minority. For the most part the HD-2's are clones of their analog parents, usually just devoid of any real talent. I don't se how anyone can be very surprised that they are not making big inroads.

See, I look at your story as exact proof that more choices equal more listeners. If we subtract your station from the mix, the radio pie SHRINKS. If we add another station, the audience should "Grow". Obviously ther is a lot more than just choice, there needs to be the programming. Redundant K-Love outlets doesn't really do that. (Redundant being more than one to a market.) Should HD-2 and HD-3 programming be better? Absolutely. (So should analog for that matter). But I just doen't see how more "Chances" for good programming don't equal more listeners either. And if those "Chances" don't translate into actual listeners, that's not HD's fault. That's PROGRAMMING's fault.

Clouseau
 
TheBigA said:
The game for broadcasters is to aggregate audience. (not aggravate)

A great argument against HD radio.

Many of the other pro-HD posts here sound as if they would similarly argue that Circuit City failed because CC just needed many more stores.
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Many of the other pro-HD posts here sound as if they would similarly argue that Circuit City failed because CC just needed many more stores.
You missed the entire point on this one, Supe'.

Now I know you needed to work a bankrupt company into the discuission to make it more colorful, but lets look at some other examples.

Like say Restaurants owned by Pepsico and it's successors Tricon and Yum!.

They started out with Pizza Hut in '77 and bought Taco bell in 88'.. The idea? More choice in the Fast Food arena. A few years later? KFC. Then successor YUM! bought Long John Silvers and A&W a few years ago. More different choices = more market share. And more market. The Circuit City example doesn't show anything. That's why no one illustrating the point used it.

Clouseau
 
clouseau said:
SUPERCASTER said:
Many of the other pro-HD posts here sound as if they would similarly argue that Circuit City failed because CC just needed many more stores.
You missed the entire point on this one, Supe'.

Now I know you needed to work a bankrupt company into the discuission to make it more colorful, but lets look at some other examples.

Like say Restaurants owned by Pepsico and it's successors Tricon and Yum!.

They started out with Pizza Hut in '77 and bought Taco bell in 88'.. The idea? More choice in the Fast Food arena. A few years later? KFC. Then successor YUM! bought Long John Silvers and A&W a few years ago. More different choices = more market share. And more market. The Circuit City example doesn't show anything. That's why no one illustrating the point used it.

Clouseau

But in reality eventually they all merge together and become boring and bland; they all have the same boring menu and the fast food business starts to go down the tubes and is sold for pennies on the dollar. They then try something totally off the wall, their new savior: HD sauce, which only further puts them in a hole.. Hmm... sounds familiar doesn't it?
 
KB1OKL said:
But in reality eventually they all merge together and become boring and bland; they all have the same boring menu and the fast food business starts to go down the tubes and is sold for pennies on the dollar. They then try something totally off the wall, their new savior: HD sauce, which only further puts them in a hole.. Hmm... sounds familiar doesn't it?

Except you're absolutely dead wrong on you assessment of Fast Food. With the exception of Burgers, YUM! Dominates most sectors. Just like Clear Channel, they bought the best and developed it.

#1 Dine In Pizza - Pizza Hut
#1 "Mexican" Taco Belll
#1 Chicken - KFC
#1 Seafood - Long Johns.

(#1 in Clouseau's heart - A&W. You can't beat that draft root beer.) Buirger market share? Not so much.

To claim they are not successful (If that's what you're doing) is just incorrect. They own all but one QSR category.

And in thier industry, co-location is what it's all about. Ever have that "Where are we going to do lunch" discussion with 3 coworkers in the car? Meet the rationale of the multibrand restaurant. (Sorry, I'm a stockholder. These guys are genius, IMHO)

You talk about menus and bland, but where's the beef? :) Right now...

KFC is pimpimg Hot wings big time as the Official Wing of the Super Bowl.

Taco Bell has some New kind of Crunchy Crap I'll never eat that they advertise every 15 minutes.

Pizza Hut skews older with whole grain crust and natural ingrediants... (Yuk, but my wife wants to try it)

Long Johns is doing their Fish and Chips promotion and A&W doesnt' have the critical mass to have a campaign.

They ain't exactly bland. And can I suggest if you're over 35, you're not in the demo?

BTW, where is the "Going down the tubes" thing coming from here? AFAIK, YUM! pretty much has their business nailed and does better than ANYONE. Even Micky D's lost mosney for a while not long ago. AKAIK, Not Yum!. Of course your opinion may vary. :)

Clouseau
 
Here's where the soft-drink and fast-food analogies fail when you try to justify fragmentation of radio audience through HD Radio. There are actually TWO problems.

One: you can't expand the product lines infinitely to accomodate new consumption, because the real product radio sells is...TIME. It's fixed and linear in nature. There are only 60 minutes in every hour and 168 hours in every week. So if you divide the listening among multiple products, like HD subs, the penetration of any given station/channel has to go down. It's simple arithmetic. The audience dilution is unavoidable unless you (a) increase overall cume or (b) hugely increase TSL, possibly some combination of both.

I get the food-court/multiple product line approach used by YUM! and malls and so forth. But it's not a valid analogy. For you to draw this comparison, hypothetically for every order of chicken poppers or whatever sold at KFC, you would have one less Taco to sell at TB. For every pie sold at Pizza Rut, you'd have one quart less of root beer syrup to sell at A&W. If you sold too many root beer floats on a hot day, you'd be totally screwing the Colonel. This would shed an entirely different light on the "food court" concept.

Which brings us to why the "fragmentation" breaks down when applied to the way radio advertising is bought....

Two: everybody knows that radio is bought "in-demo" a certain number of stations deep, depending on the market. So if you lose quarter-hours and drop in the ranker vis-a-vis your competition, you lose out on the buy. It only takes a few listeners noting in their diaries that they're listening elsewhere - for example, to your own HD sub - to pull you down in-demo from #2 to #5. Your client just bought four-deep. And thanks to your own HD genius, you've just screwed yourself out of a buy....probably future ones as well.

Again, in your fast-food analogy, every YUM! customer who crosses from the Taco Bell line over to the KFC line doesn't cost you the equivalent of hundreds of present and future Taco Bell customers. It's just one guy less in column A and one more in column B. Doesn't work that way in radio. It's as if every crossover customer changing from one product to another costs you hundreds of future customers.

With soft drinks, assuming you have enough pull with the supermarket chain, if you proliferate the brands of Coke products you can "persuade" them to just increase your shelf space, which automatically improves your chances of selling more native products vis-a-vis your competitor. Since presumably your radio competitors can also add HD products (assuming it were ever to reach any kind of critical mass in implementation) the potential advantage of "making your own pie bigger" can instantly be negated.

That's not to say that the concept of HD subs has no practical application. I think that eventually the best app for HD-FM subs will be some kind of narrowcasting and third-party or brokered sales, essentially the role which used to be fulfilled by analog SCA. At least that strategy would produce some measure of cash flow and wouldn't be likely to injure the main channel's competitiveness.
 
Savage said:
One: you can't expand the product lines infinitely to accomodate new consumption, because the real product radio sells is...TIME. It's fixed and linear in nature.

But time doesn't matter when you don't listen because you don't like what's on. Have you ever just turned the TV off because there's simply nothing on worth watching? That happens with radio listeners to. The problem with human beings is they don't all like the same stuff. Some people want mustard on their hamburgers. Not me. Burger King will make it my way. Why can't radio?

Watch this guy talk about spaghetti sauce. Maybe then you'll get it:


http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce.html
 
Savage said:
Here's where the soft-drink and fast-food analogies fail when you try to justify fragmentation of radio audience through HD Radio. There are actually TWO problems.

One: you can't expand the product lines infinitely to accomodate new consumption, because the real product radio sells is...TIME. It's fixed and linear in nature. There are only 60 minutes in every hour and 168 hours in every week. So if you divide the listening among multiple products, like HD subs, the penetration of any given station/channel has to go down. It's simple arithmetic. The audience dilution is unavoidable unless you (a) increase overall cume or (b) hugely increase TSL, possibly some combination of both.

This ia a valid point, but only if applied in a vaccuum. As Big A says, if you don't like what's on, you'll find something else. Radio no longer has the commnand of the audience it once had. That's why stations have much more specialzed formats now than they had in the past. You just can NOT limit your offerings. Radio doesn't have that clout anymore.

I get the food-court/multiple product line approach used by YUM! and malls and so forth. But it's not a valid analogy. For you to draw this comparison, hypothetically for every order of chicken poppers or whatever sold at KFC, you would have one less Taco to sell at TB. For every pie sold at Pizza Rut, you'd have one quart less of root beer syrup to sell at A&W. If you sold too many root beer floats on a hot day, you'd be totally screwing the Colonel. This would shed an entirely different light on the "food court" concept.

Again this only works in a vaccuum. If you are the only restaurant in town, it works. However, I'm not losing a Taco Bell sale because I gained a burger. I'm gaiining a burger sale at the expense of McDonalds. The idea that you're cannibalizing your own audience is a stretch. Let's assume I'm running a classic Rock format on HD-1. How much dilution is there if I put Radio Disney on HD-2? And soft rock on HD-3? Obviously you'd like to not compete with yourself, but you could do that in any analog cluster today. It just doesn't happen.

Which brings us to why the "fragmentation" breaks down when applied to the way radio advertising is bought....

Two: everybody knows that radio is bought "in-demo" a certain number of stations deep, depending on the market. So if you lose quarter-hours and drop in the ranker vis-a-vis your competition, you lose out on the buy. It only takes a few listeners noting in their diaries that they're listening elsewhere - for example, to your own HD sub - to pull you down in-demo from #2 to #5. Your client just bought four-deep. And thanks to your own HD genius, you've just screwed yourself out of a buy....probably future ones as well.

You're trying to limit the available entertainment on the radio to increase your ratings. That will not work, bevause if people can't find what they want, they'll go elsewhere. Like I-POD, Internet, etc..etc.. That's why there are very few head to head competitors anymore and we no longer see the great radio battles of years gone by. We no longer have 3 top 40 stations. We'll have a rhymic CHR, a HIp Hop and a straight CHR. All fairly different, personalities aside. Beisdes, if a station had any sense, they woud program their HD-2 to go against their COMPETITOR, not themselves.

Again, in your fast-food analogy, every YUM! customer who crosses from the Taco Bell line over to the KFC line doesn't cost you the equivalent of hundreds of present and future Taco Bell customers. It's just one guy less in column A and one more in column B. Doesn't work that way in radio. It's as if every crossover customer changing from one product to another costs you hundreds of future customers.

I see where you are coming from and it's the land of "The Unchangeable Total Radio Cume". It's right out of the "Broadcast Network Affiliate Handbook". It worked against Dumont, but times are different now. Saying you won't provide a certain format doesn;t eliminate the demand for it. It just assures you will never see any revenue from people who want it. Because they're not going to say "Well since there's no more Smooth Jazz, I'll just listen to Rush." Not going to happen. That was the message in the excruciatingly long video clip Big A linked to. Perhaps the issue is not so much GROWING the total cume as DEFENDING the total cume.

With soft drinks, assuming you have enough pull with the supermarket chain, if you proliferate the brands of Coke products you can "persuade" them to just increase your shelf space, which automatically improves your chances of selling more native products vis-a-vis your competitor. Since presumably your radio competitors can also add HD products (assuming it were ever to reach any kind of critical mass in implementation) the potential advantage of "making your own pie bigger" can instantly be negated.

Which would also be the case in the supermarket, if it were true. It just isn't, IMHO. Look at what Chuck says. Most of his listeners are NEW LISTENERS. They had given up on radio long ago. That's total cume change. They left a while ago It went down. Chuck went on the air, Choices were increased... It went UP.

That's not to say that the concept of HD subs has no practical application. I think that eventually the best app for HD-FM subs will be some kind of narrowcasting and third-party or brokered sales, essentially the role which used to be fulfilled by analog SCA. At least that strategy would produce some measure of cash flow and wouldn't be likely to injure the main channel's competitiveness.

I believe, with a couple of notable exceptions, most of radio is heading that direction. just like TV. When cable TV first started there were 12 channels. 2-13. That was 3 network affiliates, maybe a PBS station. A couple of indies (If you had them near) Later A single pay channel which operated nights only, WTCG and the obligatory weather dials. Now we have channels 5 varieties of sports channels, Food Channel General entertainment networks, Celebrity channels, Childrens channels, Old TV Programs channels, History Channels, Womens Channels, Mens Channels, African American Channels,Spanish Channels, Music video channels, Country Channels, Country music channels, Spanish music video channels, Local governemtn channels, Local education channels, General news channels, Left wing News Channels, Right wing news channels, Multiple CSpan channels, Weather channels and the list goes on and on.

Radio is the same way. Just saying "We don't want more channels because it creates a problem for our business model" isn't going to cut it, IMHO. These other choices are going to be available and frankly a lot sooner than radio would like. As I see it, they can join in the party, or WATCH the party from the outside. Either way it's happening.

Clouseau
 
"Watch this guy talk about spaghetti sauce, then maybe I'll get it?" That's obnoxious. And rude.

BigA, you haven't had any vacation since 1983? You need to take another one. Preferably someplace away from a computer or someplace without internet access.
 
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