Undercharting hits

[skippertthomas]

One observation of deeper charted hits played vs top 25 to 30.... If you go back and listen to the WLS rotations and the WCFL rotations, you would see WLS seemed to look at the bigger picture with the massive non-directional post dusk signal...WCFL played more to the zip codes in the Loop.. With their signal hyper directional after dark (to the east and not listenable past St. Road 47 at night...Just an observation...

 

[OldiesCat]

Re: charts

That's pseudo-research and pseudo-consultants. And it, they, are the reason why oldies/classic hits radio's future is moot.

I don't know what the heck you're saying here. What is a "pseudo-consultant" and what is "pseudo-research"?

??? ??? ???

 

[wgliradio]

Consultants don't pick songs. The listeners do.

In such an indirect way, the statement is almost a lie. In fact, let's call it for what it is, on the food chain, any consultant would have more of a say over what gets played than any listener in a focus group.

 

[wgliradio]

I will acknowledge that some hits that were played by WLS Chicago were probably regional in nature. Even though WLS is a 50 KW blowtorch, it is a Midwestern station. A couple of the hits they played that will end up on my mp3 were Amos Moses by Jerry Reed & Gitarzan by Ray Stevens. They were probably too country in nature to be played by a station like WABC. More hits, that is, songs that received airplay by the legendary WLS Chicago..............(How they ranked on a playlist I don't know and don't care.)
1. How Do You Do by Mouth & McNeal
2. When I Die by Motherlode
3. She's A Lady by Tom Jones
4. Psychadelic Shack by the Temptations
5. All Day Music by War
6. Soul Deep by The Box Tops

These hits got lots of airplay in NY
1. How Do You Do by Mouth & McNeal
3. She's A Lady by Tom Jones
6. Soul Deep by The Box Tops

These had some exposure, but would not turn up much, even on oldies stations
4. Psychadelic Shack by the Temptations
5. All Day Music by War

This was nowhere to be found
2. When I Die by Motherlode

 

[davideduardo]

Consultants don't pick songs. The listeners do.

In such an indirect way, the statement is almost a lie. In fact, let's call it for what it is, on the food chain, any consultant would have more of a say over what gets played than any listener in a focus group.

Focus groups are a qualitative research product, not quantitative. They are usually used for open-ended perceptual studies about opinions and behaviour, while music tests are qualitative and essentially rank songs. A focus group is typically 8 to 10 people.

A music test assembles a large group of listeners which is proportional in composition to the station audience (by age, sex, ethnicity, P1 status, etc.) and they score hundreds and hundreds of songs. The test results are tabulated on the relevant variables (again, age, sex, use of station by hours a week, etc.) and the scores are exported to Selector or Music Master or whatever scheduler the station uses.

Often, we don't even look at the song by artist and title... we arrange our library after every test based on scores, factor / cluster analysis and era, and that is how they will be played. The consultant and the PD don't get a vote. In fact, the only manipulation is generally to balance when an artist has too many songs in a category, which would impede rotation of the songs and the whole category. Otherwise, the top songs play the most, and the bottom songs don't play at all.

It's pure listener-based input that goes right on the air.

There is a complete, illustrated section on music tests at http://www.davidgleason.com/Radio_Research.htm which you may find useful, as you have some misconceptions on music and programming research which I think you will understand better with this link. I'm glad to answer questions, since nearly every significant station does the same thing and there are no "trade secrets" to the basic principals involved.

 

[OldiesCat]

who pix the hits?

Consultants don't pick songs. The listeners do.

In such an indirect way, the statement is almost a lie. In fact, let's call it for what it is, on the food chain, any consultant would have more of a say over what gets played than any listener in a focus group.

If anything, a station with a good consultant will more likely recommend songs listeners say they want to hear.

Besides, you don't test songs in focus groups.

 

[amfmsw]

Hey Skipper....I don't know about local Chicago zip codes, but WCFL "Super CFL" was as strong as KB15, WLS, CKLW in the NW Philly Suburbs. In fact, when WIBG "Wibbage Radio 99" dropped back to 10kw and changed patterns at sundown, WCFL took it's place on the dial!

 

[OldiesCat]

WCFL/CKLW

Hey Skipper....I don't know about local Chicago zip codes, but WCFL "Super CFL" was as strong as KB15, WLS, CKLW in the NW Philly Suburbs. In fact, when WIBG "Wibbage Radio 99" dropped back to 10kw and changed patterns at sundown, WCFL took it's place on the dial!

Have you ever heard that WCFL 1973 aircheck that's on ReelRadio's site? Man, that station cooked in it's hey-day.

And, when CKLW went AM stereo many years ago, driving around downtown Detroit it sounded like FM, it was so clean. Those CK engineers really knew how to use the Canadian regulations advantages to make the Big 8 really smoke.

 

[amfmsw]

Well, whaddya know, the Catman and I agree on something! I'm going out to buy a lottery ticket.

I liked to listen to the "imported" signals because they were always breaking new music. Jaggerz (p'brgh based), BTO, Anne Murray, Guess Who...all those mandated Canadian Content acts were a break from the Top 40 ('er, 30) on WFIL.

 

[Steppenwolf]

Re: WCFL/CKLW

Chicago may be market #3 but when it comes to quality radio it's the top market in the country.

Hey Skipper....I don't know about local Chicago zip codes, but WCFL "Super CFL" was as strong as KB15, WLS, CKLW in the NW Philly Suburbs. In fact, when WIBG "Wibbage Radio 99" dropped back to 10kw and changed patterns at sundown, WCFL took it's place on the dial!

Have you ever heard that WCFL 1973 aircheck that's on ReelRadio's site? Man, that station cooked in it's hey-day.

And, when CKLW went AM stereo many years ago, driving around downtown Detroit it sounded like FM, it was so clean. Those CK engineers really knew how to use the Canadian regulations advantages to make the Big 8 really smoke.

 

[OldiesCat]

Chicago

Chicago may be market #3 but when it comes to quality radio it's the top market in the country.

In the '70s and some of the '80s, Detroit and Chicago were kick-ass radio markets. I'm afraid the same can't be said for Chicago radio lately; my trips to and through Chicago have been disappointing from a radio listening perspective (New York, as well).

 

[FRR]

The problem is that all stations sound alike, no matter what city you are in. Every town as a Lite Rock, and Easy Listening, and Oldies, (which isn't really oldies), and a Mix. Same sound every town. The days of great radio is OVER! It's all about the bucks, and corporations just care about the bottom line. That's what killed great radio.
Thank God for XM and Sirius.

 

[davideduardo]

The problem is that all stations sound alike, no matter what city you are in. Every town as a Lite Rock, and Easy Listening, and Oldies, (which isn't really oldies), and a Mix. Same sound every town. The days of great radio is OVER! It's all about the bucks, and corporations just care about the bottom line. That's what killed great radio.
Thank God for XM and Sirius.

So if XM sends the same programming to all the US by satellite, it's ok. But if local stations play the same songs that other local stations in other markets do, it is not?

 

[Oldbones]

The problem is that all stations sound alike, no matter what city you are in. Every town as a Lite Rock, and Easy Listening, and Oldies, (which isn't really oldies), and a Mix. Same sound every town. The days of great radio is OVER! It's all about the bucks, and corporations just care about the bottom line. That's what killed great radio.
Thank God for XM and Sirius.

Let's see....if you go to a mall, you see pretty much the same stores whether you're in Tampa, Tacoma or Toledo. Lots of the same restaurants are in all 3 cities (and the rest of America) too. People all over the country drive the same cars, watch the same tv shows and eat the same food. Yet somehow radio stations should re-invent the wheel in every market. Why? People like many/most of the same songs in Portland Me. & Portland Ore.

"Great radio" is a matter of taste. Fact of the matter is that other than a handful of radio geeks no one really cares. If XM & Sirius are so great, why are both services hovering on the edge of bankruptcy?

 

[Tom Wells]

The problem is that all stations sound alike, no matter what city you are in. Every town as a Lite Rock, and Easy Listening, and Oldies, (which isn't really oldies), and a Mix. Same sound every town. The days of great radio is OVER! It's all about the bucks, and corporations just care about the bottom line. That's what killed great radio.
Thank God for XM and Sirius.

Let's see....if you go to a mall, you see pretty much the same stores whether you're in Tampa, Tacoma or Toledo. Lots of the same restaurants are in all 3 cities (and the rest of America) too. People all over the country drive the same cars, watch the same tv shows and eat the same food. Yet somehow radio stations should re-invent the wheel in every market. Why? People like many/most of the same songs in Portland Me. & Portland Ore.

"Great radio" is a matter of taste. Fact of the matter is that other than a handful of radio geeks no one really cares. If XM & Sirius are so great, why are both services hovering on the edge of bankruptcy?

And why should radio choices be as bland and predictable as mall shopping?
If profit is our only motive it's a race to hell because the least common denominator always wins.

You win! I win! We all win! Here we are in hell. And just look what's on the juke box.......
Every song a number one hit that tests well.

Great art is never premised on research.

ALL the mentioned undercharting hits shoould be played, even if rarely.

Radio should want to serve and cultivate listeners who give more than a passing yawn to their signals.

Why must radio accomodate the most fickle, lazy listener who would tune out at the first sign of "difficult listening"?
Such listeners should be driven off and replaced by listeners who become loyal because of compelling, unique content.
That's not the same as "the PD who thinks for himself picks Z because every body else does."

This problem goes way, way back and was one of my first misgivings about the business of radio, back in the early 70's
at the age of 10 or so, I wondered why there wasn't more variety.

 

[skippertthomas]

I have been accused of being 'artsy' at times.. But from the beginnng of the music dominated formats of McLeandon and Storz (1950's), it has been about profit and as it evolved the end result is what you hear..With the money these mega-corporate owners spend on radio-real esate, it better turn a profit.. Face it.... As much as we loved our era of hit radio or aor, it was and for the most part, is capitalism.. MONEY within the bottom line.... ???

 

[OldiesCat]

The problem is that all stations sound alike, no matter what city you are in. Every town as a Lite Rock, and Easy Listening, and Oldies, (which isn't really oldies), and a Mix. Same sound every town. The days of great radio is OVER! It's all about the bucks, and corporations just care about the bottom line. That's what killed great radio.
Thank God for XM and Sirius.

Let's see....if you go to a mall, you see pretty much the same stores whether you're in Tampa, Tacoma or Toledo. Lots of the same restaurants are in all 3 cities (and the rest of America) too. People all over the country drive the same cars, watch the same tv shows and eat the same food. Yet somehow radio stations should re-invent the wheel in every market. Why? People like many/most of the same songs in Portland Me. & Portland Ore.

"Great radio" is a matter of taste. Fact of the matter is that other than a handful of radio geeks no one really cares. If XM & Sirius are so great, why are both services hovering on the edge of bankruptcy?

And why should radio choices be as bland and predictable as mall shopping?
If profit is our only motive it's a race to hell because the least common denominator always wins.

You win! I win! We all win! Here we are in hell. And just look what's on the juke box.......
Every song a number one hit that tests well.

Great art is never premised on research.

ALL the mentioned undercharting hits shoould be played, even if rarely.

Radio should want to serve and cultivate listeners who give more than a passing yawn to their signals.

Why must radio accomodate the most fickle, lazy listener who would tune out at the first sign of "difficult listening"?
Such listeners should be driven off and replaced by listeners who become loyal because of compelling, unique content.
That's not the same as "the PD who thinks for himself picks Z because every body else does."

This problem goes way, way back and was one of my first misgivings about the business of radio, back in the early 70's
at the age of 10 or so, I wondered why there wasn't more variety.

All "research" is is asking target listeners how they feel about a group of songs. Yet, research (and consultants) is usually characterized as something like the anti-Christ.

I don't understand why any Programmer would want to run his station WITHOUT knowing what his listeners want and what they don't want to hear.

 

[amfmsw]

FR...it's always been about the Benjamins, always. The good programming you and I miss was just a lucky by-product. The better the programmaing, the more $$.

OC...I think that many of us are "pro-local" programming instead of buying consultant research is because there are so many charletons about.

They make claims that they will do this and have the station perform that, they don't deliver, cash the check that could have paid for raises or new talent or promotion or equipment, and bolt. I'm confident that DE is a top shelf profiler and research consultant. I firmly believe he is NOT in that catagory.

But some of us feel for our markets, we don't want 100% outside cookie-cutter programming. They say what the listeners should like, but we're the only ones in touch with actual listeners, at live events and phones. I've learned a lot of good things, great things, from some consultants. But I've lived through so many fiascos and disasterous decisions, that I, personally, am gun-shy of them.

 

[fang39]

The problem isn't restricted to undercharting, or obscure hits, though. Revisionist history, a.k.a. "research," has removed some of the biggest hits and their artists from the Radio landscape. I'll give you an example. I host/produce a weekly program called "Saturday Morning 70's-2 Hours of Music and Memories from the decade that gave us Archie Bunker, Watergate and The Pet Rock." The premise of the show is simple...if it got played on the radio back then, I'll play it now! Each week, we have a "Spotlight Artist" or Theme. I recently had an affilliate (a Soft AC 70's/80's) station ask me if we would provide them with a different show to run because that week's Spotlight Artists were The Carpenters! The MD's reason? "Nobody likes the Carpenters." The same thought process has eliminated great 70's artists like Barry Manilow (save "Copacabana"), John Denver, Captain & Tennille and Bread from the airwaves. These artists and their hit songs were mainstays on the radio during the decade, yet, todays focus groups have deemed them as "unlistenable." Go figure!

 

[OldiesCat]

but, wait

FR...it's always been about the Benjamins, always. The good programming you and I miss was just a lucky by-product. The better the programmaing, the more $$.

OC...I think that many of us are "pro-local" programming instead of buying consultant research is because there are so many charletons about.

They make claims that they will do this and have the station perform that, they don't deliver, cash the check that could have paid for raises or new talent or promotion or equipment, and bolt. I'm confident that DE is a top shelf profiler and research consultant. I firmly believe he is NOT in that catagory.

But some of us feel for our markets, we don't want 100% outside cookie-cutter programming. They say what the listeners should like, but we're the only ones in touch with actual listeners, at live events and phones. I've learned a lot of good things, great things, from some consultants. But I've lived through so many fiascos and disasterous decisions, that I, personally, am gun-shy of them.

Where has it ever been written that consultants or research ISN'T local programming? I don't know any successful consultant that gets hired to program X radio station and just flies in and installs their playlists, research, imaging, etc. Successful consultants indeed have strategies and tactics that work but they only work when adapted to each local market (which, once again, the successful consultants do).

I'd really like to know where the research=cookie cutter radio assumption started. ???

Footnote: you get very little useful music information at live events and off the phones. Any Programmer using those as barometers of what they should play deserves to get their ass kicked.