Undercharting hits

[davideduardo]

OC...I think that many of us are "pro-local" programming instead of buying consultant research is because there are so many charletons about.

Hahaha. Good point. The old saying that half of all doctors graduated in the bottom half of their class also applies to consultants. And there are some really good ones, as well as some stinkers.

But do remember that consultants do not bring research. They bring experience. In another field, process analysis for manufacturing, a consultant was asked why he made thousands of dollars for a few hours work. His answer was that he was not selling hours of time, but 40 years of success in the field.

They make claims that they will do this and have the station perform that, they don't deliver, cash the check that could have paid for raises or new talent or promotion or equipment, and bolt. I'm confident that DE is a top shelf profiler and research consultant. I firmly believe he is NOT in that catagory.

Thanks. I am humbled by that comment, and you know how unlikely that is! My only mantra is to focus on the listener and actually talk to them, one by one. We programmers often react to competitors, not to listeners. Or to our own taste, not listeners. Or to message boards... ;D

But some of us feel for our markets, we don't want 100% outside cookie-cutter programming. They say what the listeners should like, but we're the only ones in touch with actual listeners, at live events and phones.

But do remember that callers and active listeners are a small percentage of the listeners in many formats. Back before there were research companies, I had a PD who was required, every day, to find at least two listeners on the phone and ask them about the station and what they wanted from it. Not sophisticated, not expensive... but that PD had daily contact with the real listener base and he began to think like a listener, not a guy in an office being hyped by record ducks.

 

[TheFonz]

If Honey was #1 for eight weeks, SOMONE loved it. But many novelty songs, of which I consider Honey one, soared with great sales and airplay. Let's face it, the lyrics of Honey are heart-wrenching. At the same time, Sugar Sugar was crap too, but it gets payed every hour on the hour. Go figure.

Good point. I'm guessing that teen girls AND adults bought "Honey", while mostly teen boys bought "Jumpin' Jack". Thus the reason for "Honey" charting higher.

 

[TheFonz]

Charts are meaningless. Any radio station that bases what it plays on industry charts likely isn't much of a station.

Charts are meaningFUL to those who grew up with Top 40 radio. That's why terrestrial music radio is dying.

 

[OldiesCat]

If Honey was #1 for eight weeks, SOMONE loved it. But many novelty songs, of which I consider Honey one, soared with great sales and airplay. Let's face it, the lyrics of Honey are heart-wrenching. At the same time, Sugar Sugar was crap too, but it gets payed every hour on the hour. Go figure.

Good point. I'm guessing that teen girls AND adults bought "Honey", while mostly teen boys bought "Jumpin' Jack". Thus the reason for "Honey" charting higher.

What almost always gets left out of the discussion is what "is" vs. what "was". Heck, Roger Miller's "King Of The Road" was a huge hit at one time and, using "the charts" as criteria, Oldies stations should be playing the heck out of it. Why not? Because, it's no longer a relevant song, along with thousands of other songs that for one reason or another charted at one time.

But again: people listening to the radio today don't know and have never cared where a song charted. All they know is, "I like it" or "I don't". It is just that simple.

 

[davideduardo]

Good point. I'm guessing that teen girls AND adults bought "Honey", while mostly teen boys bought "Jumpin' Jack". Thus the reason for "Honey" charting higher.

Or the record ducks promoting Goldsboro's release had more bling and stuff to hand out. But that never happened in radio in the 60's, nah.

(Hey, who swiped the entire box of editing blades from the production room???)

Yesterday's charts are meaningless for radio today. They are neat perspectives from a history buff's or musicologist's point of view, but of no use in programming. The listeners make the charts today.

 

[amfmsw]

See now, this is where we, the "unbelievers" have not gained faith in Consultants.

OC sez: phones and in-person listener ideas and comments are useless. Past chart positions are just that: history.

DE sez: Latch on! Even to the point of forcing the PD to take the time to interview two listeners daily (great idea by the way...see, I said I learned some great ideas from consultants).

OC: Possibly sez: Buy a list...it's the latest from the top "Classic Top 40" station in the nation! It's the "new" chart.

DE: Possibly sez: Follow the musicradio77 dot com top 100. It's in touch with the listeners, and no prompting, all recall. What's more powerful than recall? But hey, why does MacArthur Park finish in the top 10 for years, and no one plays it?

We're all very confused. And angry. It's my opinion that there's too much history rewriting, and it's the opinion of some consultants whether or not a song gets time. Guys, it's gotten too scientific, cutting out key listener demos, and letting them swing in the wind.

 

[davideduardo]

See now, this is where we, the "unbelievers" have not gained faith in Consultants.

OC sez: phones and in-person listener ideas and comments are useless.

Absolutely. Call ins and comments at remotes and events may be somewhat useful in defining attitudes of the small percentage of active listners, but you miss most listeners unless you seek them out. They will not come to you to comment; if they stop likeing you, they will just go away.

Past chart positions are just that: history.

Most charts were not even accurate at the time. Hype, payola, overstocking, etc.

And what was a hit then is not a hit now unless you ask listeners, today, if they want to hear it today.

DE sez: Latch on! Even to the point of forcing the PD to take the time to interview two listeners daily (great idea by the way...see, I said I learned some great ideas from consultants).

Actually, nobody was forced. I had regular out of station brainstorming sessions with my department heads, and the idea came out of the question, from a sales manager, of how we knew what we did was right... and we came up with the simple concept of asking the listeners, directly.

OC: Possibly sez: Buy a list...it's the latest from the top "Classic Top 40" station in the nation! It's the "new" chart.

Obviously, looking at what other stations in or near your format elsewhere is helpful in making sure you test, locally, all the songs that might work... or ones that stopped testing due to burn that might be on a comback after no play for a while. But using a list from another market to program is generally not done.

DE: Possibly sez: Follow the musicradio77 dot com top 100. It's in touch with the listeners, and no prompting, all recall. What's more powerful than recall?

For music, nothing is more powerful than playing the song. Recall sucks; it is what doomed The Pulse 38 years ago, and why Arbitron is killing recall-based reporting in favor of the PPM.

But hey, why does MacArthur Park finish in the top 10 for years, and no one plays it?

Probably because everyone knows it, but nobody really wants to hear it often, if at all. Hey, I can recall a half-dozen serial killers, but I am not going to put a Jeffrey Dahmer photo over my desk. Recall is a test of memory, not a music test.

We're all very confused. And angry. It's my opinion that there's too much history rewriting, and it's the opinion of some consultants whether or not a song gets time. Guys, it's gotten too scientific, cutting out key listener demos, and letting them swing in the wind.

Asking listeners, today, what they want to hear from the songs that may or may not have been hits yesterday is just common sense. Hey, the first few times I heard La Macarena, I liked it. But it is not a "hit" to me, today.

The only thing "scientific" about asking listeners what they like is in the making sure you get the right cross section of listeners or potential listeners who can tell you how they feel now about songs. A chart is just history. It has no relevance on radio programming today. As I said, the listeners make us a new chart of the top songs every time we test.

And stations test in the demos they are designing the station for. With the degree of fragmentation there is today, you can not ask people who don't like country (for example) how they feel about Guns 'n Roses. Nor can you ask men about the love songs on a traditional AC. We are not cutting out anyone, as the intent is to serve people who would like the music we play if we play the best of its kind.

That's why Hip Hop stations don't test 45-54's. No chance, no opportunity. And if there were some Hip Hop songs a 50 year old liked (Sugar Hill Gang????) you can bet that the 15-34 core will not like it. Since a typical music test is a $30 to $40 thousand dollar affair, you want to talk to the right people...

 

[TheFonz]

Or the record ducks promoting Goldsboro's release had more bling and stuff to hand out. But that never happened in radio in the 60's, nah.

So you actually think that a record company promoting Bobby Goldsboro had more money to throw around than a record company promoting the second biggest act in music at the time? It IS time for you to retire.

 

[TheFonz]

But again: people listening to the radio today don't know and have never cared where a song charted. All they know is, "I like it" or "I don't". It is just that simple.

Or, another way to put it is: People who don't know or don't care where a song charted are the ONLY people listening to [terrestria] radio today.

 

[davideduardo]

Or the record ducks promoting Goldsboro's release had more bling and stuff to hand out. But that never happened in radio in the 60's, nah.

So you actually think that a record company promoting Bobby Goldsboro had more money to throw around than a record company promoting the second biggest act in music at the time? It IS time for you to retire.

60's Promoter Rules

Record Duck Rule #1: You do not have to pay to get a "natural hit" played.
Record Duck Rule #2: Even big acts have stiffs
Record Duck Rule #3: If a record is stiffing, reservice it.
Record Duck Rule #4: If a record is still stiffing, change the record sleve, label color and reservice it.
Record Duck Rule #5: If a record is still stiffing, then tell the PD that you will be fired if the record is not added.
Record Duck Rule #6: if all this fails, then find out what the PD likes and give it to him.

 

[davideduardo]

Or, another way to put it is: People who don't know or don't care where a song charted are the ONLY people listening to [terrestria] radio today.

You live in a sheltered world. Very few people listening to the radio, now, then, ever, give much of a darn about chart positions.

 

[FRR]

No David, it's not that XM plays the same songs as FM, it's that the variety of music on XM and Sirius is much broader. No lineup of stations in any city plays the broad range that all the channels play on XM. Most of you agree that advertisers have written most of the audience off. Besides, you can't compare the great era of radio of yesterday with the fact that stores in the malls these days are the same. Anyone who believes that example is a perfect apologist for a "vanilla world". You guys are the experts who know radio. I'm just a life long listener who miss the days when listening to radio was great fun. My point was simply this; any town you go to have the same boring formats with the same jingles and the same playlist. It didn't use to be that way, and I miss it.

 

[TheFonz]

60's Promoter Rules

Record Duck Rule #1: You do not have to pay to get a "natural hit" played.
Record Duck Rule #2: Even big acts have stiffs
Record Duck Rule #3: If a record is stiffing, reservice it.
Record Duck Rule #4: If a record is still stiffing, change the record sleve, label color and reservice it.
Record Duck Rule #5: If a record is still stiffing, then tell the PD that you will be fired if the record is not added.
Record Duck Rule #6: if all this fails, then find out what the PD likes and give it to him.

Is there any scientific basis for these rules, or are they the Rules Of Eduardo? Come to think of it, nothing in radio has a scientific basis.

 

[davideduardo]

60's Promoter Rules

Record Duck Rule #1: You do not have to pay to get a "natural hit" played.
Record Duck Rule #2: Even big acts have stiffs
Record Duck Rule #3: If a record is stiffing, reservice it.
Record Duck Rule #4: If a record is still stiffing, change the record sleve, label color and reservice it.
Record Duck Rule #5: If a record is still stiffing, then tell the PD that you will be fired if the record is not added.
Record Duck Rule #6: if all this fails, then find out what the PD likes and give it to him.

Is there any scientific basis for these rules, or are they the Rules Of Eduardo? Come to think of it, nothing in radio has a scientific basis.

There is nothing scientific to the way record ducks act. Since they have a three word vocabulary, "Play my record" and are incapable of understanding that most stations don¿t want to play that record, they just randomly quack.

 

[OldiesCat]

satellite vs. terrestrial

No David, it's not that XM plays the same songs as FM, it's that the variety of music on XM and Sirius is much broader. No lineup of stations in any city plays the broad range that all the channels play on XM. Most of you agree that advertisers have written most of the audience off. Besides, you can't compare the great era of radio of yesterday with the fact that stores in the malls these days are the same. Anyone who believes that example is a perfect apologist for a "vanilla world". You guys are the experts who know radio. I'm just a life long listener who miss the days when listening to radio was great fun. My point was simply this; any town you go to have the same boring formats with the same jingles and the same playlist. It didn't use to be that way, and I miss it.

And no lineup of stations in any city playing what satellite plays would survive. You guys can extole the virtues and variety of all the XM & Sirrius channels, but it still amounts to a very, very small fraction of terrestrial radio. More prominent than satellite radio: MP3 players.

Lastly, what gets lost in all this is the fact that terrestrial and satellite radio can indeed co-exist. Flashback to the late seventies when everybody predicted cable TV would kill the TV networks. Not only did they not kill the major networks at the time, we now have several more.

 

[skippertthomas]

It brings back the memories of calls from Mo Preskill on playing "KC & The Sunshine Band's" early singles...Old style plugger...

 

[hipporadio]

This is a great thread... I’m really enjoying the reflection here, but I won’t be lured into the “CONsultant” debate... It’s been raging for decades, and like certain notorious political issues—no cogent opinion seems to sway ANY critic or apologist. I can easily recall a dozen good stations destroyed by such outside quarterbacking... Then I’m reminded of the “class acts” like Ted McCallister (working for E. Alvin), Gary Havens, and Ron White (who I had a VERY PRODUCTIVE experience with).

Secondly, I’m not going to cry over that spilled-milk known as “the disappearing Oldies/Classic format”. ‘Never did—‘never will—I don’t need to... My 240-gig hard-drive and $300 StationPlaylist software suite, iPod, and XM subscription more than provide for my happiness. So long as “radio” remains obsessed with its over-competition for 30-somethings and fantasizes about its fortunes with a youth demo that [for the first time in nearly sixty years of media history] maintains little or NO “hip factor” for over-the-air broadcasting; while content to casually dismiss listeners with many-decades of loyalty—in my mind, this industry fully invites what it is destined to receive.

I'd like to hear the same radio station play:
Move Over by Steppenwolf
Out In The Country & One Man Band by Three Dog Night
Land Of 1000 Dances by Wilson Pickett
Theme from Shaft by Issac Hayes
Polk Salad Annie by Tony Joe White
25 or 6 to 4 by Chicago
My Cherie Amour by Stevie Wonder
Go Down Gamblin by Blood Sweat & Tears
All of these songs received airplay on top-40 legend WLS, Chicago.

Ever gonna happen? Of course not. But with my "mp3 radio station", I do hear them all.

I kinda’ like Steppenwolf’s “mp3 radio station”... As for his namesake—what an awesome rock band that managed throughout their chart career to remain true to their roots [unlike REO Speedwagon]—yet maintain a T-40-friendly nature. “Hey Lawdy Mama” was a killer tune—but charted no higher then the mid-30s. I’d add “Sookie Sookie [SOO]” to his S-Wolf favs that never charted [maybe it was TOO risqué at that time for the mother/daughter hit-music station]. I could never understand the mindless “AM edit” of “Magic Carpet Ride” [they removed ALL of the “carpet ride”]... Granted, the over-seven-minute album version was a radio no-go, but there was an obscure “FM edit” (4:25) that saved some of that element. It recently re-surfaced on a import Steppenwolf anthology on the UK MCA label.

“Go Down Gamblin” is my favorite BS&T tune (and the perfect “summer rocker”)... Another is the uncharted “I Can’t Quit Her”. Indianapolis’ WNAP [FM] had a penchant during that era for snagging cool cuts from major albums and turning them into “station hits”. While the AM T-40 in town was burning “Spinning Wheel”, ‘NAP elected the latter. They also gave shorter-shift to Three Dog Night’s “Out in the Country”—instead choosing to rotate “Cowboy” from the same LP, because (as they boldly-proclaimed on-air: “It’s a better song and WE CAN”.

I’ll reserve a preset for any Classic Hits station that plays “Polk Salad Annie”... Nothin’ like a bit of southern-fried “smooth” to balance-out the Stones.

1. How Do You Do by Mouth & McNeal – That one’s a poster child for the “Oh-Wow” category... I disliked it as a “current”... It later “grew” on me—but so does gray hair these days

2. When I Die by Motherlode – Mr. Wolf... What a memory you have... Dick Bartley would be proud! I liked that tune [‘still do!], but never had the canabbas to play it on my own (terrestrial) Oldies station. It’s “popularity” may well be evidenced by its near-total lack of CD availability... I FINALLY found a quality copy of it last year on an obscure (and over-priced) series of imported oldies compilations from Canada.

4. Psychadelic Shack by the Temptations – I enjoy that one also, but it was shadowed by a station’s tendency to burn-out their higher-charting songs [granted, many of those were better plays]. It may have been shorted simply for the mere number of great hits from the Temps.

6. Soul Deep by The Box Tops – Just inside the top-20 and their third-highest performer, but a MUST on ANY classic-intensive station worth their electric payment... But what about “Sweet Cream Ladies”?—another WLS affection.

Speaking of “WLS affections”... How about The New Colony Six [“I Will Always Think about You” and “Things I’d Like to Say”]? Both were mid-chart nationally on the Mercury label; while back in Chi-Town—they were top-sellers. “The Big 89” even played several earlier non-charting NC6 tunes from their local Sentar-label era. My distant memory was jogged within a few seconds of hearing “Love You So Much” on the recent Sundazed-label CD re-release of that group’s “Colonization” album. It NEVER charted... But I remembered it well—despite FOUR DECADES passed... I had often heard it on WLS!

Now for my personal “low-chart—low-play” favorite... “Baby Come Back” by The Equals [with Eddie Grant]... I had to pay $28 to an Amazon private seller for the British import unauthorized for distribution here. Nearly every person [outside that crock known as “the money demo”] I have played it for, somehow recalls it, and exclaims: “What a cool song... I haven’t heard that one since the seventh grade.” I’m sure the corporate radio apologists here who still manage a “meal ticket” from an industry at the brink of “life-support” will tell us why!

 

[warm590]

Here in upstate new york, the local and NY city stations played the heck out of these and many more:
* Don't say you don't remember", 1972, Beverly Bremers
* Things I'd like to say". New colony 6 , '69 I think
* When I die"- Motherlode
* Eyes of a new york woman", BJ Thomas, "68
*Triangle", Janie Grant, '62

These are all great songs and did poorly on the charts.Of course, we play them all, even the stuff that never charted. We are listener driven. And I beg to differ with the guy who says "anyone that listens to what comes over the phone should have his *ss kicked" 10,000 titles and always lookin' for more to play...being the only oldies station in the market , they love us ;D


Great thread, love to hear everybody's views...


warm590

 

[AZJoe]

Baby Come Back by the Equals hit #2 on KHJ in LA, also did much better on Cashbox than Billboard charts.

 

[OldiesCat]

Here in upstate new york, the local and NY city stations played the heck out of these and many more:
* Don't say you don't remember", 1972, Beverly Bremers
* Things I'd like to say". New colony 6 , '69 I think
* When I die"- Motherlode
* Eyes of a new york woman", BJ Thomas, "68
*Triangle", Janie Grant, '62

These are all great songs and did poorly on the charts.Of course, we play them all, even the stuff that never charted. We are listener driven. And I beg to differ with the guy who says "anyone that listens to what comes over the phone should have his *ss kicked" 10,000 titles and always lookin' for more to play...being the only oldies station in the market , they love us ;D

And I'll still take my Oldies station playing the hits WITH vareity vs. yours playing The Equals and Beverly Bremers and I'll beat you every time.