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Well Here it is!

radioskeptic said:
At the consolidators, the top guys have often worked their way up from sales,

You're changing subjects here. You specifically referred to public radio folks as "technically ignorant." That has nothing to do with consolidators. I know the top engineering people at NPR and at a lot of the top NPR stations, and they are not as you describe. You show your lack of knowledge of these people. They are not "technically ignorant." Most have advanced engineering degrees and have written boatloads for AES and technical journals. None of them are involved in fundraising or public relations. So stick with what you know...whatever that is...and don't attack people you do not know.
 
When a station plays a song on the radio, that song has to be tracked, as do all others. A bill is paid to the record companies at the end of the month by the station. Something like 9 cents a spin - though there are some discounted royalty rates that I've heard of. Either way, it adds up and I don't believe there is an exemption for HD-2s. Thus, it most certainly does cost money to program ANY format on an HD-2 or HD-3.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong about that.

No, BRNout, radio stations don’t pay the record companies yet, though the RIAA wants to eliminate radio’s exemption from the public performance royalty. (And let’s hope radio can maintain its exemption!)

Webcasters already do pay the record companies, though, and that includes broadcasters who are streaming their air own product.

But broadcasters without web streams have always had to pay publishers, who are supposed to split the proceeds with composers, through ASCAP, BMI and SESAC, just for putting music on the air. (Of course stand-alone webcasters do that , too.)
 
BRNout said:
Hard to say. At some clusters, I would think that you could.

You're obviously speculating here. Look...if a station has to make a decision between an employee and HD radio, they're going to drop HD Radio. But they're not the same thing, and their costs don't come from the same budget. So that's not the choice being made. But yes, some stations have shut off the HD to preserve their staff, and they will not be increasing their power either. So end of discussion.

BRNout said:
Someone please correct me if I am wrong about that.

It's definitely NOT 9 cents a spin. It's much much lower, like around .09 cents a spin. It doesn't go to labels, but PROs. And at the end of the year, it's a pretty small amount.

Bottom line again is the cost is pretty small. It costs much more to stream on the internet, and most stations are doing that too. But yes, if a station has achoice between their main channel and HD, they'll choose the main channel. That seems pretty obvious. But not many are really not faced with that choice.
 
DavidEduardo said:
radioskeptic said:
Let's just hope this folly is aborted by stations that belatedly recognize their own best interests before it can do as much harm to the FM band as Iniquity's half-baked technology has already done to AM.

HD has done no significant harm to AM. AM is simply, as several other posts have mentioned, on its way out due to factors that have nothing to do with HD. And the closing and surrendering of the licenses of two 50 kw clear channel AMs in Montreal today shows that there is very little perception of value for AMs, even in major markets such as Montreal.

Or so they thought. Wayne Dwyer says you shouldn't believe all your thoughts.

We run an AM that's NewTalk. While we carry Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck and Mark Levin, we are very local too, with local news, sports and traffic/weathers. We go beyond whats normal, by producing locally produced content. Shows that include hunting/fishing, golf, medical, financial and more. The station is accepted in the community for everything we do and give back. I don't think AM radio is dead, yet, but it does require doing more than just chasing after advertisers who simply want 25-54, or 18-34. It takes a different kind of attitude, it's take a belief system that says we can do anything.
It's take relationships, something market managers don't understand and Arbitron can't measure.

I've worked for plenty of stations AM and FM where the attitude is no and shut up.

What are AM/HD operators going do with this technology anyway? play more music! Free music is everyplace today and the trend for FM is talk.

Vonage, voice over IP advertises their improved sound. It's a funny thing though, I'm very happy with the sound of my phone. I'd consider Vonage if they charged $10.00 monthly for unlimited talk. But sound improvement isn't a concern of anybody I know, except for maybe Vonage.
 
So I see it as highly unlikely that anyone that's running HD now is going to upgrade unless they have free money from the public trough. And there won't be many of those due to restrictions on interference. Who, in their everlovin' ad sales and listenership down and not interested anyway minds would rebuild a transmitter plant heat generator to make more of this irrelevant Hybrid Digital nonsense maybe extend out ot their 60 dBu contour? Wouldn't most rather have a nice new shiny Cat generator sitting at the plant for the same money, or even less?

I like retirement.
 
At the consolidators, the top guys have often worked their way up from sales,
You're changing subjects here. You specifically referred to public radio folks as "technically ignorant." That has nothing to do with consolidators. I know the top engineering people at NPR and at a lot of the top NPR stations, and they are not as you describe. You show your lack of knowledge of these people. They are not "technically ignorant." Most have advanced engineering degrees and have written boatloads for AES and technical journals. None of them are involved in fundraising or public relations. So stick with what you know...whatever that is...and don't attack people you do not know.

Not at all, Big A. Boy talk about quoting something out of context (and without an ellipsis period)!

Perhaps my use of the word “honchos” was a little too colloquial for you?

I was referring to the “overpaid top executives” at the consolidators, whom I likened to their counterparts in public broadcasting. And except for a token VP for engineering (who is expected to be at least a yes man if not a hack), they are appallingly ignorant of the nuts and bolts side of radio.

I met one of those glad-handers who glibly referred to his station’s reading service for the blind as being on the station’s “sideband” (yes, in the singular!). I tried to explain to him that he meant “subcarrier,” and that subcarriers, like audio, generate sidebands, but I don’t think he understood. Can you imagine trying to explain sideband theory to somebody like that? And the moron makes over half a million dollars a year as a glorified fundraiser and front man!
 
All I can say is that I'm glad that this finally happened, and that the FCC is going about it with some precautions as far as interference complaints.

Now maybe FM HD will get some better traction for those of us not directly beneath the transmitter antennas....
 
radioskeptic said:
I was referring to the “overpaid top executives” at the consolidators, whom I likened to their counterparts in public broadcasting.

What you're completely ignoring is that it is the engineering folks at NPR and their top stations who are the driving force behind HD radio at public stations, not the suits. They are not technically ignorant, and have been involved in such a way that they were mentioned specifically in this new rule. So save your personal biases for some other discussion.
 
There are two ways to interpret "technically ignorant." In our world, one might assume that one is claiming someone to be ignorant of issues regarding technology. In another world, one might interpret that someone is defined as ignorant because they don't understand the technology or issues with same, ergo, "technically ignorant." Not ignorant per se, but ignorant of a specific issue. By the way, Webster defines ignorant as "lacking in knowlege." I am therefore ignorant in many thiings.
 
Big A said,
What you're completely ignoring is that it is the engineering folks at NPR and their top stations who are the driving force behind HD radio at public stations, not the suits. They are not technically ignorant, and have been involved in such a way that they were mentioned specifically in this new rule. So save your personal biases for some other discussion.

There are only three reasons anyone could possibly be in favor of this flawed technology. One is technical ignorance. Another is duress, which would include the fear of losing one’s job. The third is just plain intellectual dishonesty.

In the case of the engineering staffs, we can probably eliminate the first of these. But duress – a kind of industrial McCarthyism – is the most likely explanation in most cases, though the third may be a contributing factor.
 
radioskeptic said:
There are only three reasons anyone could possibly be in favor of this flawed technology.

You don't know what you're talking about. You clearly have a bias here, and feel that anyone who disagrees is either stupid, bought off, or dishonest. That ignores the possibility that you might be wrong. Oh, but that couldn't be possible, could it?

The NPR Engineering staff has no reason to fear for their job. And you should at least take a few minutes of your time to read their reports on the subject before you accuse them of intellectual dishonesty. Because right now, I think that's more your problem than theirs. You don't know anything about NPR engineers or the circumstances under which they work. You just hate HD, and nothing else matters.

Before you accuse others of McCarthyism, why not have an open mind?
 
radioskeptic said:
But broadcasters without web streams have always had to pay publishers, who are supposed to split the proceeds with composers, through ASCAP, BMI and SESAC, just for putting music on the air. (Of course stand-alone webcasters do that , too.)

Stations do not pay publishers. Stations have separate agreements with ASCAP, BMI and SESAC and pay each in accordance with contracts negotiated with industry committees. Those three organizations are not publishers.

Each of these entities who represent the publishers who, in turn, represent the composers who have "signed" their music to one of the groups... or certain artists who may self-publish. Each distributes their income, less expenses, in proportion to airplay of each song on terrestrial radio; the societies either use electronic detection of songs on stations or logs submitted on request for "sample weeks" during the year which are averaged and then used to determine levels of rights payments to each composer for each song. The publishers will take a cut based on their deal with each composer.
 
Yes, David. Maybe I should have put the words "who are supposed to split the proceeds with composers" in parentheses, instead of setting it off with commas. But I thought it was clear enough that those words were a subodinate clause, specifically a relative clause.
 
You don't know what you're talking about. You clearly have a bias here, and feel that anyone who disagrees is either stupid, bought off, or dishonest. That ignores the possibility that you might be wrong. Oh, but that couldn't be possible, could it?

The NPR Engineering staff has no reason to fear for their job. And you should at least take a few minutes of your time to read their reports on the subject before you accuse them of intellectual dishonesty. Because right now, I think that's more your problem than theirs. You don't know anything about NPR engineers or the circumstances under which they work. You just hate HD, and nothing else matters.

Before you accuse others of McCarthyism, why not have an open mind?

No, Big A, I’m not speaking here from bias, or from emotion. One of the reasons I oppose “HD” radio is exactly the same reason I would have opposed CBS’s harebrained semi-mechanical color TV system back in the early Fifties if I had been old enough to understand it at the time – because it doesn’t work very well.

But I also oppose “HD” because it causes interference to other stations. So far, this has been a problem almost exclusively confined to AM; but with the power increase, those problems will start showing up on the FM band, too, especially in the overcrowded 88-92 range where the pubcasters are packed like sardines, along with college stations – and with those pseudo-Christian stations that mislabel themselves as “educational.”

As for my use of “industrial McCarthyism,” what kind of metaphor would you use to describe a climate where one is afraid to speak one’s mind for fear of being fired, if not exactly blacklisted?

And don’t dismiss that. I spoke to a GM in a major market – it doesn’t matter where – working for a major company – it doesn’t matter which one – who had an AM that had had trouble with its “HD” some time ago. He confided to me that he himself thought the station sounded so much better in his car without “HD” that he suggested to corporate that they just leave it off. Nothing doing, they said.

This was (and is) a real top-down outfit. He complained that he had very little real authority in spite of his job title, and he seemed awfully frustrated. He has since left his job in radio. I don’t know whether he got out of radio completely. For the sake of his sanity, I hope he did.

We’ve all heard about the RCA engineers who were privately enthusiastic about FM after Armstrong demonstrated it for them in the Thirties but knew better than to speak publicly in favor of FM if they wanted to keep their jobs. Well, today engineers in consolidator commercial radio and big public radio (meaning NPR and the big stations) know better than to speak their minds about “HD,” too.

NPR is invested heavily in the concept of multicasting; and indeed, it was NPR engineers who developed the protocols for multicasting with Iniquity technology. And pubcasters are the only ones who have made a serious effort to do worthwhile programming on the subchannels. But they don’t need “HD” for that. They could put their secondary programming on FM Extra and get (1) better geographic coverage than “HD” at -10 dBc, (2) better audio quality, (3) no problems with adjacents and (4) lower electric bills.

Maybe the problem is that, after having invested so much of their prestige in the “HD” folly, they’d lose face!
 
radioskeptic said:
As for my use of “industrial McCarthyism,” what kind of metaphor would you use to describe a climate where one is afraid to speak one’s mind for fear of being fired, if not exactly blacklisted?

That's not the issue here. So why bring it up?.

radioskeptic said:
Maybe the problem is that, after having invested so much of their prestige in the “HD” folly, they’d lose face!

Or maybe not.

I don't see why you keep bringing up a lot of unrelated stuff into this, such as consolidated radio or various anecdotes about people at big radio companies. All of that has no relevance in this discussion.

There are hundreds of small, independent NPR stations in this country that don't have to follow the corporate NPR line if they don't want. They can use FM Extra, if they choose. Only one or two have. It would benefit them to use FM Extra, because it would be cheaper. And yet they haven't. Not because of ignorance, McCarthyism, or anything else. It's simple choice, which they have. So I'm not buying this big is bad, corporate conspiracy theory you're selling.
 
radioskeptic said:
Well, today engineers in consolidator commercial radio and big public radio (meaning NPR and the big stations) know better than to speak their minds about “HD,” too.

Well, that is certainly a good example of hyperbole. While many engineers may be skeptical of the prospects of HD, and find it just makes life more difficult, most approach their doubts with nowhere near the vehemence that some posters here demonstrate. And there is no evidence that questioning HD would have any consequences for them.

And pubcasters are the only ones who have made a serious effort to do worthwhile programming on the subchannels.

There are numerous examples of interesting second tier formats being done on HD2 or HD3 channels. Univision has "Amor Celestial" which is a Spanish language contemporary Christian format, on in a number of markets. In Texas, they have a Tejano channel on in several markets that won't support a Tejano main channel format any longer. Like these, there are quite a few examples of interesting programming... CBS developed its CHR flavor that became AMP on 97.1 in LA on an HD 2 channel, and that station is now top 10 in LA.
 
radioskeptic said:
Yes, David. Maybe I should have put the words "who are supposed to split the proceeds with composers" in parentheses, instead of setting it off with commas. But I thought it was clear enough that those words were a subodinate clause, specifically a relative clause.

I think you work a little to hard at sounding erudite and not hard enough on getting your facts straight.
 
I wonder how many people, in its first 20 years or so of service said of FM, "No one's buying it. We should just get rid of it!". Where would radio be now if that had happened?
 
The Big A said:
I don't see why you keep bringing up a lot of unrelated stuff into this, such as consolidated radio or various anecdotes about people at big radio companies. All of that has no relevance in this discussion.
Unrelated? What’s unrelated?
As for my use of “industrial McCarthyism,” what kind of metaphor would you use to describe a climate where one is afraid to speak one’s mind for fear of being fired, if not exactly blacklisted?
That's not the issue here. So why bring it up?
But it is germane. This thing is on life support only because so many bigwigs in commercial and public radio – and in the FCC – have invested their money, their personal prestige or both in it. And they aren’t disposed to brook any criticism of it from their employees, no matter how cogent.
I don't see why you keep bringing up a lot of unrelated stuff into this, such as consolidated radio or various anecdotes about people at big radio companies. All of that has no relevance in this discussion.
Actually, the similar top-down management style of big corporate radio and big public radio is relevant, as I think I’ve demonstrated, because in both it fosters group think, or a reasonable facsimile of it, at least in public.
There are hundreds of small, independent NPR stations in this country that don't have to follow the corporate NPR line if they don't want. They can use FM Extra, if they choose. Only one or two have. It would benefit them to use FM Extra, because it would be cheaper. And yet they haven't. Not because of ignorance, McCarthyism, or anything else. It's simple choice, which they have. So I'm not buying this big is bad, corporate conspiracy theory you're selling.

Interestingly, neither the underpowered Class A “NJN” stations of New Jersey’s Public Broadcasting Authority nor Rhode Island’s WRNI—small NPR member stations that seem to be unloved step-children of the system—are “HD” stations, and they don’t use “FMeXtra” either. And while I don’t know the whole story in New Jersey (though I know that the state in a financial crisis), I do know the situation in Rhode Island, because I had the chance to speak with their chief engineer.

He told me that he had a chance to try the system with a borrowed encoder, and was very favorably impressed from an engineering perspective. Nevertheless, he didn’t recommend that WRNI invest in buying the equipment. Why not? Because with only one receiver, the rather pricey ($200) Aruba, readily available, he didn’t expect any ROI in the foreseeable future—not when that receiver price point would keep the audience for any multi-casts too small to make the effort worthwhile.

And now, let’s turn to our old friend David Eduardo, who said:
Well, today engineers in consolidator commercial radio and big public radio (meaning NPR and the big stations) know better than to speak their minds about “HD,” too.
Well, that is certainly a good example of hyperbole. While many engineers may be skeptical of the prospects of HD, and find it just makes life more difficult, most approach their doubts with nowhere near the vehemence that some posters here demonstrate. And there is no evidence that questioning HD would have any consequences for them.

I think I’ve already answered your main point, David. But hyperbole? Is my characterizing the climate of fear that inhibits our own “Cal Stymes”—an employee of a major radio company in a major market—from using his real name here as “industrial McCarthyism” any worse than, or even as bad as, some “HD” boosters’ use of the loaded term “Luddite” to describe “Cal,” Tom Wells, Bob Savage, and anyone else who has the temerity to offer well-reasoned criticism of a flawed technology?

And I’m not responding to your comments about worthwhile commercial secondary programs, David, because there we are firmly in the realm of opinion. But there is a relevant question: When they see a “hole” in the market, do they make a serious attempt to fill it, or just set up a computer in a closet and put somebody with too many other responsibilities in charge of updating it once a week?
 
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