• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

What is kroq gonna do?

That's true of today's big commercial radio stations. They are completely research-driven as you point out almost daily. Songs don't get played unless they test well. Naturally this works extremely well for gold driven formats, and those that cater to audiences who are musically risk-averse and crave familiarity such as a mainstream A/C format.

As I have said before, that is absolutely not true.

No station can test new songs. If the format includes new releases, we depend on gut feel and experience and we watch other stations of our type in other markets. And as soon as we can, we research to see if we were right. Even the best of us get averages like baseball players... more misses than hits.

Of course, Top 40 and other hit based formats have been researching ever since Todd Storz watched jukebox play in Omaha in the very early 60's. We called record shops and one-stops, and had tabulations of requests. And then we eliminated the funny business in depending on the record industry and its retailers by doing call-out, dating back to the middle of the 70's.

But we can't test new songs. It takes enough plays for our "heavy listener" to have heard it 5 or 6 times at least to know if it is "nice" or a real hit. That means two, three, even four weeks and in the meantime the airplay is based on the PD's gut... or the national PD's gut. That is why so many new songs that get airplay don't make it past the first month.

I would argue that some of the greatest radio stations in history were trendsetters that did not merely reflect taste though, they made it. "The world-famous KROQ" is world famous for exactly that reason. It earned its fame a station that broke new music and defied conventional format rules. In essence, that's what rock & roll is all about, so the station actually reflected what the format stood for which was definitely not about playing things safe.

"World Famous" is certainly an exaggeration. Among some band, maybe. Among record promoters, yes. But ask an average Alt listener in Daytona Beach about KROQ and you'll get a blank share.

And as BigA has said over and over, the labels supported KROQ in its glory days. They did street events. They supported big concerts. They brought the artists to the station, and backed the releases with promotions of all kinds.

The reason rock and alternative radio stations are so stale and boring these days is that they are programmed from the top down by corporate leaders who are too scared to take a chance on anything.

Wrong. The labels have abandoned the genre as it takes too much work for rapidly declining sales. The music is not big among 18-34's and that is where music sells in any delivery system. So the labels pay more attention to Country, Hip Hop, Reggaeton, Pop and genres that sell and where the artists are cooperative and responsive.

The music has to test well, and it won't test well if it's new and unfamiliar.

I don't understand why you base your critique on something that is not true. There is no testing of new music until it has played enough to be familiar... as I said, three to four weeks in the typical new song rotation.

There are all kinds of other factors involved, too. Let's start with the fact that there is less new material from the labels that are capable of producing national hits. There are fewer real labels recording and promoting. There is little support for stations compared with the past. And there are far fewer people attached to the genre than a decade, two decades ago as the genre is in rather precipitous decline. It's niche, not mainstream now.

A niche is still viable for radio... Smooth Jazz lived as a nice niche for two decades or more in some markets. But don't blame radio for this. Blame changing tastes.

So you end up hearing the same Red Hot Chili Peppers songs you've heard every week for the past 25 years and label it "alternative." It's no wonder rock radio is dying

It's dying because the newer generations... teens and 18-34's... are interested in much smaller numbers than in the 80's and 90's. There is a declining fan base.

. You say it's because the rock genre is fragmented, and back it up by pointing to testing. Well KROQ in the 80s played new music that crossed format boundaries that would never be allowed today. The great stations of this era were not programmed by machines, but by people with true musical intuition who were allowed to make it happen.

Machines don't program today, either. But when there was more new music, lots of label support, and many, many, many more Alt followers and fans, there was simply a lot more good new music.

I've seen Alt tests. You find there are at least three different groups for every song or artist... one that like / loves it, one that says it is okay, and one that detests it. Nearly every song is fragged that way. Since you can't have three different Alt stations in a market, we end up playing only the songs that at least are not highly negative to anyone. That thins the herd a lot.

You can't find a groundbreaking commercial FM station with that kind of buzz today because consolidation has homogenized it away. What works for A/C is very effective for most passive-listening music formats but it has sucked the soul out of new music, especially rock.

You are blaming radio. Radio is not at fault. Fragmented taste within a declining music genre make it hard to find new music that the whole audience will like. Lack of label support not only stigmatizes the format, it is a big hint that the ship is taking on water.

Don't blame the messenger.
 
Looks like KROQ has added the "Two Minute Promise"

https://kroq.radio.com/blogs/radiocom-staff/the-2minutepromise-more-music-less-commercials

Does anyone know if these promotions end up working?

You can't tell now, since listening levels are off so much... still... due to the pandemic.

We really won't be able to understand music trends, station trends and the new listening levels for 6, 10, 12 months.

And at the moment, nobody should be looking at "share". AQH persons is the only valid number for comparison, but there is no public release of that data.
 
You can't tell now, since listening levels are off so much... still... due to the pandemic.

KNDD Seattle and WNYL New York have both run the same "2-minute Promise" scheme long before the pandemic happened. Maybe others too? I think the question was whether we could look at the ratings from those stations during those time periods and determine whether the tactic was successful. Presumably it was, seeing how Entercom is doing the same thing in L.A. now after having had the opportunity to see the results elsewhere.
 

I believe that they are using the expanding corporate system for at least Alt stations of 2 minute stopsets. The statement in the message was redundant, but does say that.
 
KNDD Seattle and WNYL New York have both run the same "2-minute Promise" scheme long before the pandemic happened. Maybe others too? I think the question was whether we could look at the ratings from those stations during those time periods and determine whether the tactic was successful. Presumably it was, seeing how Entercom is doing the same thing in L.A. now after having had the opportunity to see the results elsewhere.

KNDD was doing a 5, albeit 12+, 2 months ago. It's dropped a point over the last two books. Overall, I'd say the 2 minute promise is a winner. I also note that Entercom is spreading it across other formats. KQMT (The Mountain), Denver, recently launched the 2 minute promise. This could be advertising condition driven though, with the lack of will buyers. It will be interesting to see if it spreads, and for how long it stays with other formats.
 
If they can make money on the 'two-minute promise', it's brilliant! Radio stopsets have gotten way out of hand and this could give them a decided product advantage. However, is this model economically sustainable? Are they stopping down 4 times per hour? If so, that 8 only sell-able minutes of inventory each hour.
 
If they can make money on the 'two-minute promise', it's brilliant!

Keep in mind this came after laying off lots of staff, mostly mid day and evening staff, although they also cut the staffs of morning shows. And it comes at a time when there aren't as many advertisers as usual, and the usage of radio is lower, so the ad rates are likely lower. Are they making money? We'll see.
 
I was seeing a trend in Houston where stations were selling 10 and 30 second units in addition to 60s. A two minute break could be 3 at 10 seconds, a thirty and a sixty...6 units, 2 minutes and likely the same money they could get on 3 sixties. Just a possibility.
 
Keep in mind this came after laying off lots of staff, mostly mid day and evening staff, although they also cut the staffs of morning shows. And it comes at a time when there aren't as many advertisers as usual, and the usage of radio is lower, so the ad rates are likely lower.

That all might just be coincidence. WNYL launched the the 2-minute promise last summer and KNDD in 2014. It was probably already going to be part of the strategy at KROQ to go along with the rest of the changes taken from the same playbook as the company's other Alt stations.
 
I was seeing a trend in Houston where stations were selling 10 and 30 second units in addition to 60s. A two minute break could be 3 at 10 seconds, a thirty and a sixty...6 units, 2 minutes and likely the same money they could get on 3 sixties. Just a possibility.

That has been a trend in the US for some time now; it is very prevalent on TV. In much of the free radio world, 30's and 15's are the most common spot length.

In my 30 years managing or programming in Puerto Rico, it would be rare to have more than one client running 60's in any given month. All 30's, and a few 15's.
 
If they can make money on the 'two-minute promise', it's brilliant! Radio stopsets have gotten way out of hand and this could give them a decided product advantage. However, is this model economically sustainable? Are they stopping down 4 times per hour? If so, that 8 only sell-able minutes of inventory each hour.

I was tracking this over the past few days - it sounds like they are stopping about 5-6 times per hour. I really like this idea though and think will be a game-changer for them. I wonder how ALT is going to respond...
 
If I'm not mistaken, someone on this particular board has been saying for years that the PPM data confirms that fewer (like 2) longerrrrr stop sets per hour produce better ratings results. PPM data has shown that many listeners prefer 2 super long stop sets per hour, as compared to more numerous shorter stop sets per hour. Now, all of a sudden, someone gets a bright idea to limit stop sets to two minutes(!), while providing *more* stop sets per hour!? From the looks of it, many radio stations are now jumping on board, and programming this same shorter stop set formula. Is this all of a sudden a revolutionary discovery?! I'm pretty sure listeners have wanted shorter stop sets for quite some time now.
 
Might be time to wipe away the "World Famous" part of the logo. I'm not sure it's even going to be "Locally Famous." Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is now a totally different radio station.
 
PPM data has shown that many listeners prefer 2 super long stop sets per hour

Not exactly. Listeners prefer NO commercials. If they're in a car, and have access to an easy way to change the station, they are likely to switch when a break begins. The more breaks, the more times they switch. So fewer breaks mean fewer interruptions, which mean fewer changes. The length of the break is determined by the number of spots they have to run in order to meet their number.

The other issue is getting two consecutive quarter hours. If they're doing 5-6 breaks an hour, that means 2 minute breaks every ten minutes. That will likely mean they will have a lower AQH than they did previously.
 
Might be time to wipe away the "World Famous" part of the logo. I'm not sure it's even going to be "Locally Famous." Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is now a totally different radio station.

The "world famous" was hype... called "puffery" in the ad business... by a station that was locally significant and nationally known among high-intensity fans and the rock part of the music business.

If you asked someone in Rome or Istanbul or Rio de Janeiro or Saigon about the station you'd get a blank stare.

It's not a different station... it is an updated station that was running on fumes.
 
If I'm not mistaken, someone on this particular board has been saying for years that the PPM data confirms that fewer (like 2) longerrrrr stop sets per hour produce better ratings results. PPM data has shown that many listeners prefer 2 super long stop sets per hour, as compared to more numerous shorter stop sets per hour. Now, all of a sudden, someone gets a bright idea to limit stop sets to two minutes(!), while providing *more* stop sets per hour!? From the looks of it, many radio stations are now jumping on board, and programming this same shorter stop set formula. Is this all of a sudden a revolutionary discovery?! I'm pretty sure listeners have wanted shorter stop sets for quite some time now.

"Many" in radio would mean "hundreds". We are talking about less than a dozen, nearly all under one ownership.

The logic says that every stopset loses the listeners that will depart in the first minute. After that, they stay for the most part.

Entercom's idea is that if listeners know the stopset is short, they won't leave. But many radio people feel that people are so accustomed to tuning out when the first spot starts, it will just give three times as many chances to leave if they go to 6 two minute stops.

I am a believer in programming for hours and days, not minutes and seconds. But the technocrats out-rule me in today's radio.

I also believe that ad supported radio can't survive with more than 6 to 8 commercial minutes an hour... but there is no business model that can make this work as of yet.
 
I was tracking this over the past few days - it sounds like they are stopping about 5-6 times per hour. I really like this idea though and think will be a game-changer for them.

You can't have a game changer if the music and format itself is on a severe decline and the city is increasingly ethnic.
 
You can't have a game changer if the music and format itself is on a severe decline and the city is increasingly ethnic.

You're right, but I wouldn't even consider KROQ an Alternative Rock station today. It's more of a "Pop/Alternative" station - tons of tracks that are also playing on KBIG (think Imagine Dragons, Fun, Linkin Park, Paramore). Virtually no music from the '90s. We'll see how this experiment works in LA. I think casting a wider net might reel in the millennial crowd. It's why the jocks are being discouraged by saying "K-ROCK" on the air.

What I think is super interesting about the "Two Minute Promise" is the psychological element of it. Maybe listeners do prefer longer blocks of music in PPM, but what if you're TELLING the listener and being transparent with them that there are only two minutes of commercials? It could work. I'm sure there's some research behind the significance of two minutes..
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom