When did AOR or FM rock stations stop playing black artists?

[vchimpanzee]

I'd be willing to bet that there's no discussion going on in the Urban/CHR/Hip Hop forum regarding "white artists" in the format.

There may not be now. But when the term "urban contemporary" was first used, Hall and Oates' "I Can't Go for That" was an example of a song that the format included, even though they weren't black.

Amazingly, the urban station where I live played Van Halen's "Jump". It did start out as a disco station, so it would have had white artists to begin with.

 

[Gregg]

When did Rock stations stop playing black artists? Around the same time it stopped playing female artists. Around the same time it stopped playing songs that weren't primarily guitar-driven.

In the 70s, stations that were either called Progressive Rock or Album Rock or AOR played a wide variety of youthful music. They tried to avoid music that was too simplistic or bubble gum. But as said above, black artists such as Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Roberta Flack, EWF, etc. were a solid part of the Rock format. So were female singer-songwriters such as Carole King, Carly Simon, Joni Mitchell and Judy Collins. So were artists who worked on softer songs and folk, such as Bob Dylan, James Taylor, Cat Stevens and Don McLean.

It may be hard to remember but John Denver, Christopher Cross and Barry Manilow got a lot of Rock airplay in the 70s and 80s. I grew up listening to WPLJ New York when it was a Rock station. It wasn't uncommon to go from Led Zeppelin to Joan Baez to Pink Floyd to Hall & Oates.

I can remember when Breezin' by George Benson was at the top of the Billboard Album Chart. WPLJ played Breezin' and This Masquerade. Then the album stayed more weeks at the top and WPLJ had to add more songs from the album, including Affirmation and others.

But by the late 80s, it seemed Rock took many turns. The people that wanted harder edged Rock didn't want to hear what was called New Wave. And neither group wanted to hear Soft Rock.

I sometimes wonder if The Beatles could make it today. Could the same group that did Get Back and I Am The Walrus also put out Yesterday and Michelle? Or how about Fleetwood Mac, a group with two female lead singers and one male lead singer? Would we accept a group that gives us songs ranging from Rhiannon and Little Lies to Go Your Own Way and Tusk? You're no longer allowed to do too many styles of music, either from one group or on one radio station.

 

[michael hagerty]

It may be hard to remember but John Denver, Christopher Cross and Barry Manilow got a lot of Rock airplay in the 70s and 80s. I grew up listening to WPLJ New York when it was a Rock station. It wasn't uncommon to go from Led Zeppelin to Joan Baez to Pink Floyd to Hall & Oates.

All good points, and I remember Denver, Cross and (mentioned after that paragraph) George Benson getting FM album rock airplay.


But Manilow? Really? I never heard or read about that in the trades. What cuts? What station?

 

[TheBigA]

You're no longer allowed to do too many styles of music, either from one group or on one radio station.

Depends on how successful you are. Right now, radio stations in several formats are falling over themselves to play anything by Taylor Swift, regardless of the fact that she's mainly a country singer. Yet she gets pop airplay, and collaborates with lots of big pop stars. And country stations have accepted Darius Rucker from Hootie & The Blowfish. If you're a big star, and make good music, you'll get airplay. Could The Beatles have had the liberty to make the kinds of music they made without going through Beatlemania? No.

 

[firepoint525]

It may be hard to remember but John Denver, Christopher Cross and Barry Manilow got a lot of Rock airplay in the 70s and 80s. I grew up listening to WPLJ New York when it was a Rock station. It wasn't uncommon to go from Led Zeppelin to Joan Baez to Pink Floyd to Hall & Oates.

All good points, and I remember Denver, Cross and (mentioned after that paragraph) George Benson getting FM album rock airplay.
But Manilow? Really? I never heard or read about that in the trades. What cuts? What station?

SM95, a soft-rock station here in Nashville back in the late '70s/early '80s, used to play Manilow quite a bit. They probably also played quite a few album tracks of his. There hasn't been much activity on this site lately, but you can check it out:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SM95/

There may be a playlist or two hiding somewhere on that site. You might need to join and become a member there. I was not living here back in their heyday, but I enjoyed listening to their Live365 recreation of it, until that, too, had to be taken down. :'(

As for the other claims made here, we can chalk that up to either faulty memory on someone's part, or stations that weren't really "rock." There was a station like that in the small town where I grew up that would play pretty much anything that was popular at the time. It was 1980, and FM radio was just coming into its own. And this station had only been on the air for a little over five years at the time. They had a "rock" reputation at that time, but would play pretty much anything. I would call them "rock 40." They certainly had a broader playlist than the AM station (not jointly owned) literally just down the road from them (at the time). Rumor had it that one of their jocks, who had just graduated high school the previous spring, quit rather than play songs like "Boy From New York City," which was popular at the time. (But that AM station added its own FM sister station (a rigid, tightly-controlled top 40 playlist) about a year later, and he went to work for them, so who knows? Maybe he grew up a bit!)

 

[OldNumber7]

When did Rock stations stop playing black artists?... Around the same time it stopped playing songs that weren't primarily guitar-driven.

And that's the point. If the station wasn't/isn't "primarily guitar-driven," it's pretty hard to call it a rock station. Yes, we used to call the first generation Top 40 stations "rock stations" (even though they played hits from every genre) but the very word was redefined when pure rock formats were born in the 70s.
By the mid to late 70s, "rock" meant FM AOR, and FM AOR meant -- in many markets -- Burkhart/Abrams "Superstars" format (or something imitating it). There were different flavors of Superstars, depending on the market. Some were dayparted and played a lot of what would now be called Rock AC during the day (e.g. Billy Joel, softer hits by Fleetwood Mac and the Doobie Brothers). Others were more loyal around the clock to the Who, the Stones, Floyd and Skynyrd. But the unifying point is that all these were PRIMARILY GUITAR-DRIVEN bands (even if their occasional pop ballad without guitars got played on the air).
With the exception of Hendrix, there were darn few succesful guitar driven black recording artists in that era. And THAT is the answer to the question.

 

[XMportable]

Skin pigment of the artist is irrelevant.

Neanderpaul, To most people it may not be revelant. The real question to the market is when is it NOT/Or better when WILL it NOT be revelant ANYMORE? The reality is that skin color has been and still is a factor of radio, they even market to your skin color so why is this a shock to you? ??? ??? ??? :

The fact is, skin pigment is *only* relevant if you believe it to be. Any "black artist" that plays *rock* music worthy of airplay on a rock station, receives airplay. Hendrix has been on rock radio for over 40 years. Lenny Kravitz for over 20. Living Colour, Lajon Witherspoon, Fishbone, Bad Brains, Ben Harper, Phil Lynott etc. Now, a legitimate question might be "why are there so few 'black artists' in Rock today?"

I've never, in the 27 years I've done this, *ever* witnessed anyone consider, or exclude any record on any radio station I've ever worked for (and there have been some greats...programmed by greats), based upon skin pigment. In fact, I'm proud to say that I grew up listening to one of the greatest Rock stations in our industry (WBCN) And *they* even regularly employed "black" personalities on a rock station, in one of America's most racist cities...and it worked.

I'd be willing to bet that there's no discussion going on in the Urban/CHR/Hip Hop forum regarding "white artists" in the format.

Race is only an issue, to those who consider race an issue.

Ok I don't think race is an issue in music, but when I turn on my radio it's pretty segregated and thats regardless of what I think about race isn't it? How did it start ?
You are right in some ways , but not in all ways. If you think how some black rockers was exploited in the early days it has always been some issues regarding race. Urban music by white artist is called Blue eyed soul, you never heard that..

 

[XMportable]

Here are just a few:

The average white band
Tower of Power
Hall and Oats
BEEGEES
The Rightious Bros.
teena marie
george michael
Annie Lenox
Madonna 1st single started on R&B stations first. Everybody thought she was black...lol

Currents:
Jon B
Jamiroquai
Amy Winehouse
Joss Stone
Adele
Remy Stand
Mayer Hotherne
Justin Timberlake
Robin Thicke...and I can go on ;D

 

[landtuna]

I sometimes wonder if The Beatles could make it today. Could the same group that did Get Back and I Am The Walrus also put out Yesterday and Michelle? Or how about Fleetwood Mac, a group with two female lead singers and one male lead singer? Would we accept a group that gives us songs ranging from Rhiannon and Little Lies to Go Your Own Way and Tusk? You're no longer allowed to do too many styles of music, either from one group or on one radio station.

As far as groups with female leads and male backups consider ABBA and Mama's and Papa's.

The above paragraph is another excellent description of why popular music today is a deplorable imitation of that of past decades, specifically 1950-1980.

 

[michael hagerty]

It may be hard to remember but John Denver, Christopher Cross and Barry Manilow got a lot of Rock airplay in the 70s and 80s. I grew up listening to WPLJ New York when it was a Rock station. It wasn't uncommon to go from Led Zeppelin to Joan Baez to Pink Floyd to Hall & Oates.

All good points, and I remember Denver, Cross and (mentioned after that paragraph) George Benson getting FM album rock airplay.
But Manilow? Really? I never heard or read about that in the trades. What cuts? What station?

SM95, a soft-rock station here in Nashville back in the late '70s/early '80s, used to play Manilow quite a bit. They probably also played quite a few album tracks of his.

Well, if we expand the definition to include the soft rock stations, like KNX-FM in Los Angeles, then yeah, Manilow got play. But when I saw Gregg say Manilow "got a lot of Rock airplay" and then go on to mention WPLJ, I'm trying to make the connection between Barry and PLJ, KLOS or KMET....none of which ever played him, to my knowledge.

 

[firepoint525]

When did Rock stations stop playing black artists? Around the same time it stopped playing female artists. Around the same time it stopped playing songs that weren't primarily guitar-driven.

Pat Benatar still gets quite a bit of rock airplay. And her music is primarily guitar-driven. So she still fits there, and still belongs there.

It may be hard to remember but John Denver, Christopher Cross and Barry Manilow got a lot of Rock airplay in the 70s and 80s. I grew up listening to WPLJ New York when it was a Rock station. It wasn't uncommon to go from Led Zeppelin to Joan Baez to Pink Floyd to Hall & Oates.

All good points, and I remember Denver, Cross and (mentioned after that paragraph) George Benson getting FM album rock airplay.
But Manilow? Really? I never heard or read about that in the trades. What cuts? What station?

SM95, a soft-rock station here in Nashville back in the late '70s/early '80s, used to play Manilow quite a bit. They probably also played quite a few album tracks of his.

Well, if we expand the definition to include the soft rock stations, like KNX-FM in Los Angeles, then yeah, Manilow got play. But when I saw Gregg say Manilow "got a lot of Rock airplay" and then go on to mention WPLJ, I'm trying to make the connection between Barry and PLJ, KLOS or KMET....none of which ever played him, to my knowledge.

Point taken. But this goes back to what I said earlier about some folks here possibly having faulty memories. The FM station in rural northwest TN that I mentioned earlier had a "rock" reputation, but they could get away with playing pretty much anything, because they had NO FM competitors from within that county at the time, and only nominal competition from neighboring counties, and even those were automated at the time, if memory serves.

But Manilow certainly had a few "album tracks" that might have been familiar to non-fans. "Bandstand Boogie" was his creation. And he used to sing in concert what he called his "VSM," a "very strange medley" of commercial jingles that he had sung (although not necessarily written) that had become well-known with TV viewers.

I still remember the controversy among his fans, circa 1983, when he put out "Some Kind of Friend," one of the "rockin'est" songs that he had ever released. I remember his fans thinking, "oh, he's gone off and joined them now!" meaning "rockers," of course. Manilow said (about the controversy) at that time, "Mick Jagger has nothing to worry about." Truth be told, Manilow had had a long career by then, and if he wanted to experiment with "rockin' out" a little, who could blame him? Might be considered a "shark jump" by his fans, but I still think that it is a really cool tune! 8)

Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTcDvJ_VnsQ

 

[firepoint525]

When did Rock stations stop playing black artists? Around the same time it stopped playing female artists. Or how about Fleetwood Mac, a group with two female lead singers and one male lead singer? Would we accept a group that gives us songs ranging from Rhiannon and Little Lies to Go Your Own Way and Tusk? You're no longer allowed to do too many styles of music, either from one group or on one radio station.

Heart has two female lead vocalists, they are guitar-driven, and they have been FM AOR airplay staples for years! Interestingly enough though, "These Dreams," one of their few songs to feature Nancy Wilson on lead vocals, became their first pop #1 hit. And it had a much more AC feel to it than many of their earlier hits.

KISS fans groaned when they released "Beth," mainly because it was NOT "guitar-driven." And I'm sure that at least some of Bob Seger's fans had the same reaction when they first heard "We've Got Tonight." In both cases, these were both minor aberrations, and could not be considered a long-term change of pace for either of them. We cannot even consider "Beth" a "power" ballad (a term that really did not come in until the '80s) because there was no "power" to it, not even a single drum beat in it anywhere, if I recall.

 

[OldNumber7]

And on the subject of female rockers, in addition to Pat Benatar and Heart, let's not forget Chrissie Hynde (Pretenders), Joan Jett, Lita Ford, Grace Slick, Nicks/McVie (Fleetwood Mac), Linda Ronstadt, Debbie Harry (Blondie), Sandy Denny (Fairport Convention), Claire Torrey (recorded with Pink Floyd), and many others. Unlike what the poster said a page or two ago, FM AOR never stopped playing female artists. Hell, WMMR in Philly even played Cindy Lauper (Time After Time was written by a guy from the Hooters -- who came from Philly). Bottom line -- if they had rock cred, they got played.

 

[Gregg]

@Michael Hagerty >>>But Manilow? Really? I never heard or read about that in the trades. What cuts? What station?<<<

WPLJ and WNEW-FM, the two most prominent NYC Rock stations, played plenty of Manilow when he first was on the charts. Mandy, of course. Also Copacabana and New York City Rhythm, two uptempo songs with New York settings.

Let's remember he grew up in Brooklyn. He wrote his own music. And he had worked for Bette Midler, who I should say, also got Rock station airplay at first. Midler was a staple at small NYC venues in her early career, especially gay ones. WNEW-FM liked her because she was trying to recreate the 40s-50s sound for a new generation. Same with the Manhattan Transfer, who also got airplay on WNEW-FM at first.

Of course, as Manilow and Midler became know for their soft hits, they weren't getting airplay on Rock stations then. And by the time Boy from New York City and Twilight Zone became hits, WNEW-FM had stopped playing Manhattan Transfer.

 

[michael hagerty]

@Michael Hagerty >>>But Manilow? Really? I never heard or read about that in the trades. What cuts? What station?<<<

WPLJ and WNEW-FM, the two most prominent NYC Rock stations, played plenty of Manilow when he first was on the charts. Mandy, of course. Also Copacabana and New York City Rhythm, two uptempo songs with New York settings.

Let's remember he grew up in Brooklyn. He wrote his own music. And he had worked for Bette Midler, who I should say, also got Rock station airplay at first. Midler was a staple at small NYC venues in her early career, especially gay ones. WNEW-FM liked her because she was trying to recreate the 40s-50s sound for a new generation. Same with the Manhattan Transfer, who also got airplay on WNEW-FM at first.

Of course, as Manilow and Midler became know for their soft hits, they weren't getting airplay on Rock stations then. And by the time Boy from New York City and Twilight Zone became hits, WNEW-FM had stopped playing Manhattan Transfer.

Wow. Given the context and local interest, WNEW-FM makes some sense. I'm still surprised about WPLJ. And "Mandy".....wow. I'm trying to picture how you build that into a set of 1975 AOR.

 

[Gregg]

Maybe if Mandy was his fourth single, it wouldn't have aired. But he was a new artist who had worked with Midler, grew up in Brooklyn and I'm sure WPLJ and WNEW-FM thought he was a singer-songwriter, like Cat Stevens or Don McLean. So when Mandy came out and started climbing the charts, they played it. Perhaps he didn't know that his career would be in AC. Or his record company didn't know.

Let's remember that at first, Bruce Springsteen was marketed also as a singer-songwriter, in the tradition of Bob Dylan and Gordon Lightfoot. Maybe you've heard the story that at a Central Park concert, they had Springsteen open for Anne Murray. Of course, his fans from New Jersey already knew he was a rocker at heart, and they packed the concert. When his opening set was over, they were not very kind to Anne Murray.

 

[TheBigA]

Perhaps he didn't know that his career would be in AC. Or his record company didn't know.

His record company knew. Clive Davis personally pushed Manilow to AC. Just as he did with Whitney.

WNEW loved Bette Midler and supported anything she did, just as they did with Phoebe Snow.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Heart has two female lead vocalists, they are guitar-driven, and they have been FM AOR airplay staples for years! Interestingly enough though, "These Dreams," one of their few songs to feature Nancy Wilson on lead vocals, became their first pop #1 hit. And it had a much more AC feel to it than many of their earlier hits.

Not only AC, but adult standards. I'm happy to say I haven't heard it on America's Best Music since Dial Global took over from Westwood One.

 

[TheBigA]

As I read the obits, it struck me that Richie Haves was another black artist who got rock radio airplay for a brief period in the late 60s and early 70s. In fact, he was so well known at the time that he was asked to open Woodstock! His window may have been a year or so longer than Hendrix. His cover of Here Comes The Sun was a hit in 1971. But that was about it.

 

[michael hagerty]

As I read the obits, it struck me that Richie Haves was another black artist who got rock radio airplay for a brief period in the late 60s and early 70s. In fact, he was so well known at the time that he was asked to open Woodstock! His window may have been a year or so longer than Hendrix. His cover of Here Comes The Sun was a hit in 1971. But that was about it.

Yeah, until "Here Comes The Sun", which got Top 40 and AC play, Album Rock stations were the only place on the radio you could hear Richie.