Where's The Rock on CHR?

[flashback]

if janis joplin came out to day with the vocal talent today she had then and looking exactly as she did then would she still make it big?or would she not make it because she isn`t pretty enough or some reason like that no matter how tremendus her singing talent is?

 

[Starbucks]

^ you just said the reasons that MTV and music videos were one of the worst things that happened.it got where it often was more important how the performer(s) looked then the sound which is wrong because it is the music business not the moddeling business.

No I didn't. Read it again. Know what the marketing business is all about.

 

[Starbucks]

if janis joplin came out to day with the vocal talent today she had then and looking exactly as she did then would she still make it big?or would she not make it because she isn`t pretty enough or some reason like that no matter how tremendus her singing talent is?

She would be a very strong concert act today. Probably score on the AAA charts, but not a CHR artist. Barely was back then except for her posthumous "Me and Bobby McGhee".
Never said looks were anything bad....you just need to look and sound cool to blend in the front door.
Your just not heard on the radio unless you have an exceptional sound or hit if your not exposed in most cases.

 

[bigman2005]

Lol 18-34 females are purchasing rock and rock-influenced music on a consistent basis now, and you're still defending Rhythmic-leaning CHRs at all costs

And BTW go through the Arbitron ratings and look at the majority of Rhythmic-leaning CHRs (outside of Hispanic markets) and their PPM shares - it might be a good way to occupy your time, and you might learn something

Mr. Atlanta ,


What you have to realize.....CHR is based on trends, targeting,imaging, and the times. To give you an example....there was an artist back in the beginning of the 80's decade named Christopher Cross. He had good sucess managing to achieve 4 top 20 songs from his first album (including a number 1). He was developing a string of hits the first couple of years until MTV became more visible in the average family homes. It's not what you can hear or enjoy audibly...now you can see it visually, which put a sharp decline in his Top 40 career. Why? He looked like a good ole' boy from Texas, and that is what he exactly was. He didn't fit in with the visual effects or formats of Prince, Michael Jackson, The Tubes, Van Halen, Duran Duran,or what you can find on a "Living In A Oblivion" CD. And many artist who had a string of hits like Kenny Rogers, Barry Manilow, Air Supply etc. many of the pop and R&B artist who have been around along time getting an occasional hit were declining. Their looks, their age, everything shows on the TV screen. MTV became or coincided with CHR radio by 83. And that's why Mumford and Son or Adele gets hesistating airplay on CHR or even a younger Hot AC station. Mumford and Sons, a group who resembles the Kingston Trio except on drugs of the 60's does not exactly fit in with Taio Cruz, Neon Trees, Usher, Rhianna, Lifehouse, Sean Kingston, All American Rejects, Taylor Swift etc. You can be the best producing employee at a firm...but if you don't fit in... chances are your gone. Playing back to back videos from a Lady Gaga, Kesha video, to a folk rock group who has a banjo player can be a train wreck. What does that have to do with what's heard on the radio?? Audience automatically see what these artist personality styles look like, along with knowing their hobbies, who they go to bed with, what time they eat dinner etc. It's not like you have to go to a record shop and look at an album cover to get an idea. It's MEDIA, MEDIA, MEDIA. And that's why you have again... I'll repeat again...a CHR and a HOT AC format.

Good example about Christopher Cross

But what about Joe Jackson? He had MTV airplay and CHR airplay even though he was a pasty faced Englishman who looked like Don Knotts.

 

[Starbucks]

I'll answer that. His music was great. His sound was new wave and actually was part of the 1st generation of new wave. He did not look actually handsome, but had a cool persona about him. He was British which that was in at the time and new wave was cool and he was marketable. Then he strayed off into the Brian Setzer sound before Brian did back in the mid 80's. And yes it would be hard for him to make a comeback on CHR.

 

[xyz]

CHRles & Co. are making a great deal of sense to me. Modern AC is a euphemism for "Chicken Rock". Ask 100 Modern AC listeners what they consider to be a 'contempory hit'. Compare to the local Mod AC's playlist. Much different? Poll 100 ladies 18-34 who enjoy CHR as to their view of a contemporary hit. Check that with the local CHR playlist. Much different? CHRs by nature MUST continually monitor that pulse!

 

[atlantaboy]

Modern AC is a euphemism for "Chicken Rock".

I mean, I'm not sure how it's possible to have a legitimate discussion about radio with people making posts like this :

I'm not even sure we should be classifying Christina Perri, Mumford & Sons, and Adele as "Modern AC", since they're massively popular with people under 25

Look at it this way - in Atlanta, our Triple A station just shot up 3.4-4.5, by far the best book they've ever had - if CHR continues to ignore Indie/Alternative, I think this is just the beginning of a huge surge in Triple A and Indie-leaning Alternative ratings, driven by people 18-34, many of whom otherwise would be listening to CHR (if the format were more balanced)

Starbucks - Christopher Cross had top 10 CHR hits straight through 1984 ("Think Of Laura"), so no clue where that example is coming from - if you're talking about after 1984, Christopher Cross had nowhere near the level of popularity of Mumford & Sons in 2011 - Mumford is on the cover of Billboard, has two massive downloaded singles, and the #1 most downloaded CD in the country right now -plus Mumford is extremely popular with teens and young adults in 2011, and I really don't think that was true with Christopher Cross in 1985 - and all this is assuming that Christopher Cross kept putting out singles after 1985, and I'm not even sure that was true

 

[atlantaboy]

Here's even more evidence that CHR is not mirroring the musical tastes of 18-34 females...

In the January Atlanta Arbitron ratings,
1. Star 94, a Hot AC, is FOURTH 18-34
2. Dave-FM, a Triple A, is SEVENTH 18-34

Chicago has experienced similar trends...don't have the 18-34 numbers, but
1. Mix 101.9, a Hot AC, is up 3.2-4.0
2. WXRT, a Triple A, is up 3.0-3.8
3. WKSC, a Rhythmic/Pop CHR, is down 3.3-3.0
(I know these potentially could all be people over 34, but with these increases I seriously doubt it...)

BTW both Hot ACs and Triple As play Mumford & Sons

 

[CHRles]

Triple A is not a popular format with the under 25 year olds. I'm not sure how it's possible to have a legitimate discussion about radio with a guy who doesn't get that.
Christina Peri, Mumford & Sons, and Adele are somewhat popular with under 25 year olds who are not huge CHR listeners. They are not massively popular with the CHR crowd at this time so I'm baffled as to how we can have a legitimate discussion about radio with a guy posting on the CHR/Pop board making false claims.
I'd be delighted to see all 3 of these acts cross over this year, or better yet in the coming weeks, and gain massive support on CHR radio. Yet with hot new releases from Lady Gaga storming onto number one on the Pop charts, with Britney's new video being the talk of the town, and with the popularity of artists like Rihanna and Bruno Mars showing no signs of slowing down I'm not sure CHR radio will be embracing more Pop/Rock material.

Atlanta's so called Triple A station WZGC 92.9 Dave FM (which once upon a time was an excellent CHR called Z-93) is closer in sound to Modern AC Alice 97.3 San Francisco than it is to Triple A 97.7/104.5 KFOG San Francisco. Regardless, it's nice to see this Triple A outlet succeed, but let's also not forget that Atlanta's CHR/Pop station, Q-100, is also up in the ratings to a 5.4.
Q-100 has recently updated its music mix, and now plays more Rhythmic/Pop hits and less titles by the likes of Rob Thomas and other Adult Rock in rotation. Q-100 is also one of Atlanta's top stations in cume, while Dave FM is only 14thy in cume. Q-100 outcumes Dave FM by about 350 K listeners. Additionally it's no secret that Q is one of Atlanta's top rated stations for 18-34 year olds.

Lastly, with regards to Christopher Cross. The guy won several grammys (5 to be exact). He also had two number one hits on Billboard's Hot 100 in the early 80s, a number 2 hit, and in 193 a Top 10 hit. Most importantly, the guy was huge at the time on CHR radio. On the other hand, "Little Lion Man" by Mumford & Sons peaked at number 61 on Billboard's Hot 100, but made it to number one on the Modern Rock charts. Their song "The Cave" is currently number 68 on the Hot 100.
It's great to see their album doing so well on the Albums chart, but there are plenty of other artists who sell big on the Albums chart without being popular on CHR radio such as Jason Aldean, Thompson Square, and The Decembrists.

And seriously, you actually brought up Chicago where Kiss and B-96 dominate the 18-34 game? With regards to Mix 101.9, if you'd actually been paying attention to the station over the past year you'd know that they've been moving away from the Modern A/C sound by adding more and more big Rhythmic/Pop hits.

 

[CHRles]

Lastly, with regards to Christopher Cross. The guy won several grammys (5 to be exact). He also had two number one hits on Billboard's Hot 100 in the early 80s, a number 2 hit, and in 193 a Top 10 hit.

That should read "...and in 1983 a Top 10 hit" ;D

 

[Starbucks]

Modern AC is a euphemism for "Chicken Rock".

I mean, I'm not sure how it's possible to have a legitimate discussion about radio with people making posts like this :

I'm not even sure we should be classifying Christina Perri, Mumford & Sons, and Adele as "Modern AC", since they're massively popular with people under 25

Look at it this way - in Atlanta, our Triple A station just shot up 3.4-4.5, by far the best book they've ever had - if CHR continues to ignore Indie/Alternative, I think this is just the beginning of a huge surge in Triple A and Indie-leaning Alternative ratings, driven by people 18-34, many of whom otherwise would be listening to CHR (if the format were more balanced)

Starbucks - Christopher Cross had top 10 CHR hits straight through 1984 ("Think Of Laura"), so no clue where that example is coming from - if you're talking about after 1984, Christopher Cross had nowhere near the level of popularity of Mumford & Sons in 2011 - Mumford is on the cover of Billboard, has two massive downloaded singles, and the #1 most downloaded CD in the country right now -plus Mumford is extremely popular with teens and young adults in 2011, and I really don't think that was true with Christopher Cross in 1985 - and all this is assuming that Christopher Cross kept putting out singles after 1985, and I'm not even sure that was true

>>>>I don't think you have a clue what your arguing about. "Think of Laura" came off a soap opera track during it's prime, and after that, it was it for CC. Sure he could put out singles for the next 20 years....doesn't mean it got played on CHR, and he never hit the top 40 again afterwards. I know there has been attempted comebacks, But so what?
Next...comparing downloading charts to a trade or radio station playlist is like comparing the stock market with the rest of the economy. Back in the 60's -70's that would have meant something to compare, but not today. The reason again is MARKETING MARKETING RESEARCH TARGETING. HOW MANY TIMES DO WE NEED TO TELL YOU THIS. Well anyway you can't compare 1985 with 2011 or 2085. Your 28 years old which means you haven't been around beside second questioning people on what went on in the business in the 70's. I don't know where you received your logic on Led Zepplin. Again let me speak to your mother and ask her if she's not poisoning your mind with wrongful information. Sure, it is a shame where variety has been divided into cubicles, and Mumford and Sons only gets played on a 25 and older station (or at the moment), but we gave you answers 7 posts ago.

 

[atlantaboy]

Triple A is not a popular format with the under 25 year olds. I'm not sure how it's possible to have a legitimate discussion about radio with a guy who doesn't get that.

You need to look at the Atlanta numbers, man - things are changing - Triple A is becoming a more popular format for listeners 18-34

If massive numbers of under 25 listeners can't hear Mumford and Adele on CHR, they're going to start turning to other formats, including AAA and Hot AC - and as far as I'm concerned, the proof is in the Atlanta ratings (and most likely in the Chicago ratings too)

 

[atlantaboy]

"Little Lion Man" by Mumford & Sons peaked at number 61 on Billboard's Hot 100, but made it to number one on the Modern Rock charts. Their song "The Cave" is currently number 68 on the Hot 100.

You're using low Hot 100 peaks (due to lack of CHR airplay) to argue that because of their low peaks, CHRs shouldn't be giving them airplay? Are you serious?

And I'm sure you know enough about the Hot 100 to know that hitting #1 on the Alternative chart doesn't amass very many airplay "points", because Alternative stations set their power rotation around 40-50 spins per week (about half as many as CHRs) - the only way to get a lot of Airplay points is to do well on formats with high power rotation

 

[atlantaboy]

And seriously, you actually brought up Chicago where Kiss and B-96 dominate the 18-34 game? With regards to Mix 101.9, if you'd actually been paying attention to the station over the past year you'd know that they've been moving away from the Modern A/C sound by adding more and more big Rhythmic/Pop hits.

Mix 101.9 isn't "moving away" from Modern AC - they're combining the "Modern AC" sound (of Mumford and Christina Perri) with Rhythmic/Pop - Mumford & Sons has been huge on that station, and so has Hold It Against Me (ironically - a combination of musical tastes you said was basically impossible)

WTMX is doing exactly what CHRs should be doing - playing both Britney, GaGa, Mumford, and Christina Perri, because they are all popular right now

And as a result, they are absolutely dominating WKSC - a 4.0 share compared to a 3.0 share isn't even close (especially if WTMX is rising 0.8 points, and WKSC is falling 0.3 points)

And I'm not sure why you would concentrate on cume - advertisers don't - all it means is a lot of people are listening to WKSC for extremely short periods of time, which doesn't do much for billing

As far as all the Christopher Cross stuff, in 1985 he represented the past as far as musical trends, so the comparison to Mumford & Sons is completely ridiculous

 

[atlantaboy]

EDIT (sorry ;D)

 

[CHRles]

The 12+ numbers are just a beauty contest.
In their targetted demos, WKSC and WBBM both beat WTMX. Oh, and cume matters more than ever, and that's largely atrributed to PPM.

Triple A stands for Adult Album Alternative. It's not Hot Adult, but just Adult as is the case with A/C which stands for Adult Contemporary. This by its very nature implies the target is definitely not with the under 25 year olds.

You are rightfully correct though that not everyone likes listening to Justin Bieber, Ke$ha, or Taylor Swift. Triple A's rise can be attributed to:

1) Older CHR listeners being turned off by the current state of Pop music, or perhaps they still like it, but need to balance it with a station that offers a real music alternative to it. This despite the fact that many CHRs are enjoying huge numbers with both 18-34 and 25-54 year olds.
2) A good number of Modern A/C stations have returned to Hot A/C by broadening their music mix to include more Rhythmic/Pop.
3) Country music fans that are turned off by Teen Country acts or by A/C Country acts are discovering Triple A radio.

There's quality and substance to be found with a lot of Triple A artists, but as has been stated time and time again the popularity of bubblegum Pop is HUGE right now with CHR listeners.
Not sure if you've noticed this but over in Seattle Rhythmic leaning CHR/Pop station Movin 92.5 is now ahead of longtime Rhythmic Kube 93, and is getting closer in numbers to Rock-friendly CHR/Pop outlet Kiss 106.1. Seattle has its fair shares of Asians, Hispanics, and blacks, but it's by and large still a non-ethnic caucasian market.
Minneapolis is also not a very ethnically diverse market when compared to most of the other Top 20 markets yet 101.3 KDWB leans pretty strongly on Rhythmic/Pop. In fact, pure Pop and danceable Pop have a long legacy of working in the Twin Cities going back to the days of (Minneapolis natives) Prince and Lipps Inc.

BTW, Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was not a big CHR/Pop hit when it came out yet it still managed to peak at number 2 on the Hot 100. A lot of CHR/Pop stations were also reluctant to play Sir Mix A lot's "Baby Got Back", or even Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise" when they were released yet both songs still managed to peak at number 1 on the Hot 100. So your excuses for Mumford & Sons still don't hold up well.

 

[Starbucks]

Comparing the Billboard Hot 100 is no longer the bible of what goes over the airwaves. Even though it's accurate, programming a CHR off that page can give you dismal ratings. It was a great guide back in the 70's and 80's on what happening on the radio stations playlist.

 

[justpassingthough]

Triple A is not a popular format with the under 25 year olds. I'm not sure how it's possible to have a legitimate discussion about radio with a guy who doesn't get that.

You need to look at the Atlanta numbers, man - things are changing - Triple A is becoming a more popular format for listeners 18-34

If massive numbers of under 25 listeners can't hear Mumford and Adele on CHR, they're going to start turning to other formats, including AAA and Hot AC - and as far as I'm concerned, the proof is in the Atlanta ratings (and most likely in the Chicago ratings too)

How does Triple A's ascent in one city translate to a mass exodus nationwide from listeners of CHR to other formats? Oh, two cities, if you include Chicago, but you have provided no proof of this. Add up the shares or cume of the CHR stations in Chicago (12+ and 18-49) and its clear that CHR still trounces AAA or even Hot AC. Much like our conversation regarding how KAMP isn't a true mainstream CHR, you seem completely biased based upon your own listening habits. I like Mumford & Sons too, but they really aren't appropriate for CHR.

 

[atlantaboy]

The 12+ numbers are just a beauty contest.
In their targetted demos, WKSC and WBBM both beat WTMX. Oh, and cume matters more than ever, and that's largely atrributed to PPM.

Triple A stands for Adult Album Alternative. It's not Hot Adult, but just Adult as is the case with A/C which stands for Adult Contemporary. This by its very nature implies the target is definitely not with the under 25 year olds.

You are rightfully correct though that not everyone likes listening to Justin Bieber, Ke$ha, or Taylor Swift. Triple A's rise can be attributed to:

1) Older CHR listeners being turned off by the current state of Pop music, or perhaps they still like it, but need to balance it with a station that offers a real music alternative to it. This despite the fact that many CHRs are enjoying huge numbers with both 18-34 and 25-54 year olds.
2) A good number of Modern A/C stations have returned to Hot A/C by broadening their music mix to include more Rhythmic/Pop.
3) Country music fans that are turned off by Teen Country acts or by A/C Country acts are discovering Triple A radio.

There's quality and substance to be found with a lot of Triple A artists, but as has been stated time and time again the popularity of bubblegum Pop is HUGE right now with CHR listeners.
Not sure if you've noticed this but over in Seattle Rhythmic leaning CHR/Pop station Movin 92.5 is now ahead of longtime Rhythmic Kube 93, and is getting closer in numbers to Rock-friendly CHR/Pop outlet Kiss 106.1. Seattle has its fair shares of Asians, Hispanics, and blacks, but it's by and large still a non-ethnic caucasian market.
Minneapolis is also not a very ethnically diverse market when compared to most of the other Top 20 markets yet 101.3 KDWB leans pretty strongly on Rhythmic/Pop. In fact, pure Pop and danceable Pop have a long legacy of working in the Twin Cities going back to the days of (Minneapolis natives) Prince and Lipps Inc.

BTW, Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was not a big CHR/Pop hit when it came out yet it still managed to peak at number 2 on the Hot 100. A lot of CHR/Pop stations were also reluctant to play Sir Mix A lot's "Baby Got Back", or even Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise" when they were released yet both songs still managed to peak at number 1 on the Hot 100. So your excuses for Mumford & Sons still don't hold up well.

I agree with a lot of this post - as far as Triple A standing for Adult Album Alternative and Hot AC standing for Hot Adult Contemporary though, that's the problem right there - younger listeners are flocking to AAA and Hot AC (at least in some markets) because the CHRs are ignoring rock-leaning artists which are widely popular with the younger demo - of course AAA and HAC weren't designed to appeal to females under 25, but that's what's happening, at least in Atlanta, where WSTR and WZGC now have huge numbers 18-34, and from what I've heard, it's happening in Chicago too - it also looks like it's most likely happening in Detroit, in terms of Hot AC and their Indie-leaning Alternative station (both the pop/rhythmic CHRs in Detroit are doing extremely poorly in market share)

I know this isn't happening in every market, but I think it's the beginning of a trend

Also in 1991 the Hot 100 was a completely different beast, based only on ranked CHR airplay and ranked sales reports (Smells Like Teen Spirit peaked at #9 in CHR Airplay based on station playlists, which were still used then) - nothing compared to the current situation with Mumford and Adele though

 

[atlantaboy]

Add up the shares or cume of the CHR stations in Chicago (12+ and 18-49) and its clear that CHR still trounces AAA or even Hot AC.

???

Ignoring the fringe signals, Chicago has one CHR, one AAA, and one HAC - WTMX (Hot AC) has a 5.0, WXRT (AAA) has a 3.8, and WKSC (CHR) has a 3.0 - Both Hot AC and AAA are "trouncing" on CHR

I'm assuming you're not combining CHR and Rhythmic, which are two different formats (just like CHR and Hot AC are two different formats)

BTW I never posted that there was a "mass exodus" of CHR listeners to AAA and HAC - I posted that in some major markets, potential 18-34 CHR listeners are turning to HAC and AAA because CHRs are not playing music that is important to them