Where's The Rock on CHR?

[Dkampy]

The 12+ numbers are just a beauty contest.
In their targetted demos, WKSC and WBBM both beat WTMX. Oh, and cume matters more than ever, and that's largely atrributed to PPM.

Triple A stands for Adult Album Alternative. It's not Hot Adult, but just Adult as is the case with A/C which stands for Adult Contemporary. This by its very nature implies the target is definitely not with the under 25 year olds.

You are rightfully correct though that not everyone likes listening to Justin Bieber, Ke$ha, or Taylor Swift. Triple A's rise can be attributed to:

1) Older CHR listeners being turned off by the current state of Pop music, or perhaps they still like it, but need to balance it with a station that offers a real music alternative to it. This despite the fact that many CHRs are enjoying huge numbers with both 18-34 and 25-54 year olds.
2) A good number of Modern A/C stations have returned to Hot A/C by broadening their music mix to include more Rhythmic/Pop.
3) Country music fans that are turned off by Teen Country acts or by A/C Country acts are discovering Triple A radio.

There's quality and substance to be found with a lot of Triple A artists, but as has been stated time and time again the popularity of bubblegum Pop is HUGE right now with CHR listeners.
Not sure if you've noticed this but over in Seattle Rhythmic leaning CHR/Pop station Movin 92.5 is now ahead of longtime Rhythmic Kube 93, and is getting closer in numbers to Rock-friendly CHR/Pop outlet Kiss 106.1. Seattle has its fair shares of Asians, Hispanics, and blacks, but it's by and large still a non-ethnic caucasian market.
Minneapolis is also not a very ethnically diverse market when compared to most of the other Top 20 markets yet 101.3 KDWB leans pretty strongly on Rhythmic/Pop. In fact, pure Pop and danceable Pop have a long legacy of working in the Twin Cities going back to the days of (Minneapolis natives) Prince and Lipps Inc.

BTW, Nirvana's "Smells Like Teen Spirit" was not a big CHR/Pop hit when it came out yet it still managed to peak at number 2 on the Hot 100. A lot of CHR/Pop stations were also reluctant to play Sir Mix A lot's "Baby Got Back", or even Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise" when they were released yet both songs still managed to peak at number 1 on the Hot 100. So your excuses for Mumford & Sons still don't hold up well.

But at least Nirvana, Sir Mix A lot, and coolio charted...unlike Mumford and Sons

 

[atlantaboy]

EDIT (lol I need to stop doing this)

 

[justpassingthough]

Add up the shares or cume of the CHR stations in Chicago (12+ and 18-49) and its clear that CHR still trounces AAA or even Hot AC.

???

Ignoring the fringe signals, Chicago has one CHR, one AAA, and one HAC - WTMX (Hot AC) has a 5.0, WXRT (AAA) has a 3.8, and WKSC (CHR) has a 3.0 - Both Hot AC and AAA are "trouncing" on CHR

I'm assuming you're not combining CHR and Rhythmic, which are two different formats (just like CHR and Hot AC are two different formats)

BTW I never posted that there was a "mass exodus" of CHR listeners to AAA and HAC - I posted that in some major markets, potential 18-34 CHR listeners are turning to HAC and AAA because CHRs are not playing music that is important to them

For the sake of this argument, you need to combine CHR mainstream and rhythmic to get an accurate picture of how CHR formatted stations rival AC or AAA stations. CHR, whether pop or rhythmic, are geared towards 18 to 34, and do extremely well in this demo, and as it turns out under PPM, also do well with 25 to 54. AC stations were always geared towards 25 to 54- and serve a different listenership than CHR stations. Pop and rhythmic stations will share a bulk of P1 and P2 listeners, while its far less likely that AC stations will share their listeners with CHR stations (pop or rhythmic).

Since your argument is that the 18 to 34 demo isn't being served by CHR's failure to include rock product, you need to factor in that both pop and rhythmic stations are geared towards this demographic or you're serving up a false equivalency.

 

[Slinky]

Iyounger listeners are flocking to AAA and Hot AC (at least in some markets) because the CHRs are ignoring rock-leaning artists which are widely popular with the younger demo - of course AAA and HAC weren't designed to appeal to females under 25, but that's what's happening, at least in Atlanta, where WSTR and WZGC now have huge numbers 18-34, and from what I've heard, it's happening in Chicago too - it also looks like it's most likely happening in Detroit, in terms of Hot AC and their Indie-leaning Alternative station (both the pop/rhythmic CHRs in Detroit are doing extremely poorly in market share)

A few unique markets do not a trend make.

Atlanta - WZGC is doing very well, but it is in the absence of a true Alternative station. When 99X was around, Dave-FM was not doing as well. You'd have to break out the male/female numbers as well as the 18-24 and 25-34 numbers to see if WZGC is really taking listeners from WWWQ. I have a feeling WZGC is getting male listeners that would have otherwise gone to 99X.

Chicago - WXRT is older-leaning than your average AAA. They play a LOT of classic rock and I suspect their numbers skew heavily male and heavily 35+. While you could make the case that WZGC is sort of competing in the same arena as WWWQ as they're both aiming for 18-34 (even if different parts), you can't do that with WXRT. WXRT and WKSC are in different worlds altogether. You also can't discount WBBM- they are the heritage "hit music" station and they have a pop lean. Kiss-FM and B96 are almost direct competitors and together they outscore Mix.

Detroit - similar to Chicago. While WDVD is doing well, the CHRs combine for a greater share. All you can really conclude from this is that, in a market with multiple CHRs that lean very rhythmic, a Hot AC is going to do well comparatively.

If Rock is a trend, then why are Hot ACs becoming more and more Rhythmic? And why is it only these few markets were Hot AC does better than its CHR competitors?

 

[justpassingthough]

Iyounger listeners are flocking to AAA and Hot AC (at least in some markets) because the CHRs are ignoring rock-leaning artists which are widely popular with the younger demo - of course AAA and HAC weren't designed to appeal to females under 25, but that's what's happening, at least in Atlanta, where WSTR and WZGC now have huge numbers 18-34, and from what I've heard, it's happening in Chicago too - it also looks like it's most likely happening in Detroit, in terms of Hot AC and their Indie-leaning Alternative station (both the pop/rhythmic CHRs in Detroit are doing extremely poorly in market share)

A few unique markets do not a trend make.

Atlanta - WZGC is doing very well, but it is in the absence of a true Alternative station. When 99X was around, Dave-FM was not doing as well. You'd have to break out the male/female numbers as well as the 18-24 and 25-34 numbers to see if WZGC is really taking listeners from WWWQ. I have a feeling WZGC is getting male listeners that would have otherwise gone to 99X.

Chicago - WXRT is older-leaning than your average AAA. They play a LOT of classic rock and I suspect their numbers skew heavily male and heavily 35+. While you could make the case that WZGC is sort of competing in the same arena as WWWQ as they're both aiming for 18-34 (even if different parts), you can't do that with WXRT. WXRT and WKSC are in different worlds altogether. You also can't discount WBBM- they are the heritage "hit music" station and they have a pop lean. Kiss-FM and B96 are almost direct competitors and together they outscore Mix.

Detroit - similar to Chicago. While WDVD is doing well, the CHRs combine for a greater share. All you can really conclude from this is that, in a market with multiple CHRs that lean very rhythmic, a Hot AC is going to do well comparatively.

If Rock is a trend, then why are Hot ACs becoming more and more Rhythmic? And why is it only these few markets were Hot AC does better than its CHR competitors?

Agreed. I see no real trend here, and if anything, the statement that CHR is missing the boat on "rock-leaning artists that are widely popular with the younger crowd" seems like a statement based upon the bias of one poster. Radio is business, and they would play polka music on CHR stations if that is what the 18-34 crowd wanted to hear. As a business, it has never been as researched and studied as it is today. Plus, with the advent of PPM, stations have a much greater pulse on what sticks with audiences and what does not stick.

Like it or not, rhythmic is extremely popular right now, even to the point where some Hot ACs play a decent amount of rhythmic. If I have to hear Usher "Yeah", Ludacris part included, on KBIG one more time, I'll go insane. I never thought that Usher would be an overplayed artist at Hot AC. Of course, this is based one station and my listening habits, but Hot AC wouldn't have touched a gold track like "Yeah" ten years ago, even in a market like Los Angeles.

 

[atlantaboy]

Add up the shares or cume of the CHR stations in Chicago (12+ and 18-49) and its clear that CHR still trounces AAA or even Hot AC.

???

Ignoring the fringe signals, Chicago has one CHR, one AAA, and one HAC - WTMX (Hot AC) has a 5.0, WXRT (AAA) has a 3.8, and WKSC (CHR) has a 3.0 - Both Hot AC and AAA are "trouncing" on CHR

I'm assuming you're not combining CHR and Rhythmic, which are two different formats (just like CHR and Hot AC are two different formats)

BTW I never posted that there was a "mass exodus" of CHR listeners to AAA and HAC - I posted that in some major markets, potential 18-34 CHR listeners are turning to HAC and AAA because CHRs are not playing music that is important to them

For the sake of this argument, you need to combine CHR mainstream and rhythmic to get an accurate picture of how CHR formatted stations rival AC or AAA stations.

In that case, you also have to combine HAC and AAA - so Chicago would have a CHR/CHR Rhythmic share of 6.3, and a HAC/AAA share of 8.8

I'm not sure what the point of this comparison would be though, since 18-34 females listening to HAC/AAA are not potential Rhythmic listeners

 

[atlantaboy]

"rock-leaning artists that are widely popular with the younger crowd" seems like a statement based upon the bias of one poster.

No, it's a statement based on I-Tunes download numbers - that's the entire topic we've been talking about for the past few pages :

 

[atlantaboy]

If Rock is a trend, then why are Hot ACs becoming more and more Rhythmic?

Sorry, but this is the problem right here - people thinking that if Rhythmic is popular, Rock has to be unpopular - once again, Rock and Rhythmic are both popular right now (again, look at the I-Tunes chart)

Hot ACs are becoming more rhythmic to fill in the "mainstream CHR" hole left by so many CHRs that have gone Rhythmic - and as a result, many of these Hot ACs are getting strong 18-34 numbers

 

[CHRles]

Add up the shares or cume of the CHR stations in Chicago (12+ and 18-49) and its clear that CHR still trounces AAA or even Hot AC.

???

Ignoring the fringe signals, Chicago has one CHR, one AAA, and one HAC - WTMX (Hot AC) has a 5.0, WXRT (AAA) has a 3.8, and WKSC (CHR) has a 3.0 - Both Hot AC and AAA are "trouncing" on CHR

I'm assuming you're not combining CHR and Rhythmic, which are two different formats (just like CHR and Hot AC are two different formats)

BTW I never posted that there was a "mass exodus" of CHR listeners to AAA and HAC - I posted that in some major markets, potential 18-34 CHR listeners are turning to HAC and AAA because CHRs are not playing music that is important to them

For the sake of this argument, you need to combine CHR mainstream and rhythmic to get an accurate picture of how CHR formatted stations rival AC or AAA stations.

In that case, you also have to combine HAC and AAA - so Chicago would have a CHR/CHR Rhythmic share of 6.3, and a HAC/AAA share of 8.8

I'm not sure what the point of this comparison would be though, since 18-34 females listening to HAC/AAA are not potential Rhythmic listeners

If anything, Hot A/Cs are to be combined with the CHR stations as by your own hypothesis they're adding more Rhythmic titles to supposedly fill the Mainstream CHR hole.
The truth is that they're adding more Rhythmic music b/c they see that Rhythmic Pop is doing so well with all demos at their rival CHR stations, and more importantly b/c it's testing so well on their own stations.
S x-nay on the idea of combining Triple A and Hot A/Cs, especially the Hot A/C stations you've brought up.

While Rock is still popular in many circles, for the most part Rock is not a big performer on the Itunes digital songs chart.
While Mumford & Sons is doing well at Modern Rock and Triple A, the band is only doing well on some of the Hot A/C stations, which is why they're a non-mover this week at number 20.

 

[Starbucks]

Where's the Rock? IMO I can tell you where's the rock. Mostly what's been coming out hasn't been moving or really grabbing me or most people. "Animal" Neon Trees was the last great thing in this era that has been out , and that was in the heart of the summer release. Rock Mafia is good...and it's starting to come on in some CHR stations showing adds. JTX " Livin in America" will be a real test to see if Rock is being discriminated on CHR because that is good release since Neon Trees. Kings of Leon was another good rocker in a real long time, but we don't hear that type of consistency in rock music the past 10 years.
As far as what's currently out.....Linkin Park...... mediocre, My Chemical Romance..fair, The Script, nowhere as good as their last release last summer if at all. Train "Marry Me' ...after the last 2 great releases, not so good. Sick Puppies.....again an ok song.
Good Charlotte "Last Night" a song that will need more listening to. Thirty Seconds to Mars, ok, it may need more time. Tipsy, Big Heed and the Aliens, not good. Florence and the Machine....it should just stay an album cut, not a single. Too different for the rest of the current list.
The point is if this is all you got in rock to go against Urban or rhythm...it's not gonna win out. It's a far cry from the Steppenwolf, Grand Funk, Grassroots, Eagles to Bon Jovi, Gin Blossoms era. There hasn't been any rockers that can rival within that rock genre era. Fall Out Boy, Yellowcard, Creed, Hoobastank, Foo Fighters, Trapted... even though they have been hits....they have been disasters compared to other rock eras. Maybe a so -so here. Nickleback , the most successful rock band of the millenium , their last single "This Afternoon" I thought was their best single they put out. It wasn't statistically their best charted, and received only seldom CHR play. Their other hits were mediocre IMO.
The urban acts like Usher, Enrique Iglesias, Black Eyed Peas, Britney who have been out for awhile, their earlier stuff I did not like or care for......Has improved, or it's been their best product that they have put out since they charted some ten years ago. Even adults in their 40's and up are apparently listening. It's been creeping up on Hot AC as well. Rock has to step it up with good catchy hook material, not glam and slam , not Doom and gloom like it has mostly been the past era. It has to get back to being as good like in the Beatles and post Beatles era. (Never said sound exactly like the 70's & 80's)...but rival those years, or it will be secondary.

 

[XCountry285]

Neon Trees is charting with 1983, Mumford & Sons is kinda played. The Script & Train are strictly Pop Material. Linkin Park's song I feel is too slow and depressing. Sick Puppies again great band but material is too soft. We all want something we can dance too that's got a beat. Neon Trees did just that. We need Fall Out Boy to come back they were by far the most listened to I think of the mid 2000s era. (IMO The Best time for CHR) Now it's crap.

 

[danwxman]

Neon Trees is charting with 1983, Mumford & Sons is kinda played. The Script & Train are strictly Pop Material. Linkin Park's song I feel is too slow and depressing. Sick Puppies again great band but material is too soft. We all want something we can dance too that's got a beat. Neon Trees did just that. We need Fall Out Boy to come back they were by far the most listened to I think of the mid 2000s era. (IMO The Best time for CHR) Now it's crap.

Well, CHR was struggling in the mid 2000s and now it is seeing some of the highest ratings ever... so what does that tell you?

 

[atlantaboy]

Neon Trees is charting with 1983, Mumford & Sons is kinda played. The Script & Train are strictly Pop Material. Linkin Park's song I feel is too slow and depressing. Sick Puppies again great band but material is too soft. We all want something we can dance too that's got a beat. Neon Trees did just that. We need Fall Out Boy to come back they were by far the most listened to I think of the mid 2000s era. (IMO The Best time for CHR) Now it's crap.

Well, CHR was struggling in the mid 2000s and now it is seeing some of the highest ratings ever... so what does that tell you?

That PPM is being used :

There are very few CHRs now that have higher shares (ranking-wise) than they did in the mid-2000s anyway - there are more CHRs, but that's because it's become acceptable for Rhythmic stations to report as CHR/Pop, where in the mid-2000s they would've been reporting to CHR/Rhythmic

 

[danwxman]

Neon Trees is charting with 1983, Mumford & Sons is kinda played. The Script & Train are strictly Pop Material. Linkin Park's song I feel is too slow and depressing. Sick Puppies again great band but material is too soft. We all want something we can dance too that's got a beat. Neon Trees did just that. We need Fall Out Boy to come back they were by far the most listened to I think of the mid 2000s era. (IMO The Best time for CHR) Now it's crap.

Well, CHR was struggling in the mid 2000s and now it is seeing some of the highest ratings ever... so what does that tell you?

That PPM is being used :

There are very few CHRs now that have higher shares (ranking-wise) than they did in the mid-2000s anyway - there are more CHRs, but that's because it's become acceptable for Rhythmic stations to report as CHR/Pop, where in the mid-2000s they would've been reporting to CHR/Rhythmic

CHR is doing very well in non-PPM markets as well

 

[atlantaboy]

^I don't think individual station ratings (in non-PPM markets) are higher though than they were in the mid-2000s - I think there are just a lot of additional stations which five years ago would've been classified as Rhythmic

 

[atlantaboy]

96X/Norfolk has basically evolved into a "CHR/Rock" format (I think in the past few weeks, but not sure) - it's still classified as Alternative, which I guess is still the best label for it, but if you stream it, it's set up just like a CHR (fast paced, young target audience, current-based)

They're tagline is "Today's Music"

Interested to see what you guys think...

http://www.96x.fm

 

[beantownradio25]

Rock is a weak format right now, and Pop/Rhythmic material is whats hot right now. Period. Stations of significance stick with the trends. KISS 108 in Boston is the #1 station in the market and has seen their ratings gradually increase to a 10 share since the introduction of PPM, and I highly doubt they got ratings like that in the Diary days.

 

[atlantaboy]

KISS 108 in Boston is the #1 station in the market and has seen their ratings gradually increase to a 10 share since the introduction of PPM, and I highly doubt they got ratings like that in the Diary days.

They've actually been #1 in their market, or close to it, for almost a decade I think - Boston is a REALLY bad market for rock though (or at least Alt/Rock)

 

[the golden boy]

So, what are most CHRs doing to compensate for the lack of rock product? Perhaps, digging through golds and re-currents?

 

[atlantaboy]

^Some are digging through recurrents and golds, but a ton of stations are simply waiting for months and months before finally adding rock songs - two examples are Waiting For The End by Linkin Park and Rhythm Of Love by the Plain White T's, which both went for adds about 5 months ago - some stations like Kiss/Seattle "mysteriously" got huge callout from these songs last fall, while most stations simply ignored them - now, 5 months later, people are hearing these songs for the first time and realizing they actually like them, and both have solid bullets in the low 20s of the CHR chart

As of right now, it looks like Sing by My Chemical Romance and Closer To The Edge by Thirty Seconds To Mars are probably going to follow the same pattern (a majority of stations are going to wait until 5 months after the adds date to finally start playing them)

BTW an even more extreme example was King Of Anything by Sara Bareilles - some stations literally waited until the song was falling down the CHR chart (about six months after its release) before finally adding it into power