Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

[Thomps2525]

A slogan used over the years by several oldies stations and classic-rock stations is "You know every song we play." Why are programmers so reluctant to play oldies that many of us don't remember? It should go without saying---but I'll say it anyway because that's the kind of guy I am---that every song was new to us when we first heard them. In the 1960s, which is probably the most popular decade for oldies fans, we listened to top-40 radio and heard three to six new songs every week. We tried to keep up with the new artists and the new hits. If we go back through the 1960s radio station surveys, we'll likely find many songs we don't remember hearing, unless we had a fershlugginer transistor radio earpiece in our ear all day long and slept with the radio playing from under the pillow. I would love to have a station that plays every top-30, or even top-40, hit from the '60s. And I would enjoy hearing the unfamiliar songs today more than I would have in the '60s. I have no reason to listen to a station that tells me I "know every song." Boring!

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

If you want deeper and older "oldies" cuts you are not going to find them on radio stations on FM in most parts of the US.

Again, you are thinking I am looking for rare obscurities to be played in major markets - far from it. So I have a challenge for you:

1971 - a far more generous year away from "real oldies" - both "Maggie May" by Rod Stewart and "Want Ads" by the Honey Cone were #1 hits. One we hear to death, the other would have me on my seat listening to whatever is next. Anyway, I'd love to see you show us some of your hard research numbers as to why one is "good" and one is "bad", please.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

Perhaps I am somewhat unique but it doesn't bother me now and never has that a piece of music belongs to another generation.

AMEN Brother! I'm not in that "retirement" demo, and still love the 60's-80's music to death!

Michael,
Thanks for the Pandora update. It's about as monotonous or boring as radio is in my taste, but thanks for showing me one example!

 

[davideduardo]

I'm sure if your above statement were really true, then CBS-FM would not be featuring a top 20 special every Sunday evening and with a national host. People do listen, just recreational for the weekends.

As mentioned before:

1. Weekend evenings represent close to 0% of a station's revenue.
2. Specialty shows allow selling to a client or two with "ownership" privileges.
3. It's nice to be able to say to other clients, "we'll even bonus you in the (name of show) on Sundays"
4. Listening to radio is so low on Weekend evenings that stations could go off the air and their 6 AM - 12 Mid M-Sun rating would not change by even 0.1 of a point.

 

[davideduardo]

1971 - a far more generous year away from "real oldies" - both "Maggie May" by Rod Stewart and "Want Ads" by the Honey Cone were #1 hits. One we hear to death, the other would have me on my seat listening to whatever is next. Anyway, I'd love to see you show us some of your hard research numbers as to why one is "good" and one is "bad", please.

Simple.

Caveat: each station in each major market does its own research, so the results at KRTH may be different from those at CBS-FM or KLUV or...

So, if a station plays one but not the other, it found that the audience was favorable or, at least, neutral on the Stewart song an a significant number dislike or hate the Honey Cone song.

The fact that both may have been #1 on some highly subjective chart 41 years ago is totally irrelevant. What matters to the management of any station is whether their listeners want to hear the song on the radio today.

They don't want to hear the Honey Cone song... just listening to it should be a clue as to why.

 

[oldies76]

The fact that both may have been #1 on some highly subjective chart 41 years ago is totally irrelevant. What matters to the management of any station is whether their listeners want to hear the song on the radio today.

1) The charts are what they are.....it's the standard radio uses for any info they desire to mention to the listeners (primarily specials). There are no other resourses....Billboard or other local charts are it.

2) I think that 99% of your average listeners, have no knowledge or the desire to understand what is the "insider" history on the music charts. All they know, is that they were big hits in the early 70's.

3) If the charts were so "subjective", then why are so many books being published with chart data spanning over 50 years for the public to enjoy?

The charts provide valuable data on the history of a prior hit and are ranked as such. It is what it is and that's what we go by. Record collectors use it, oldies aficionados use them and radio stations use them. If 27 songs reached #1 in 1973 according to Billboard, then that's the official tally we use.

 

[davideduardo]

1) The charts are what they are.....it's the standard radio uses for any info they desire to mention to the listeners (primarily specials). There are no other resourses....Billboard or other local charts are it.

People love lists... just watch Letterman! So books of lists and statistics about music, sports, politics... even world records... sell very well.

The fact that there is nothing better than the charts does not mean that they are the non plus ultra or the holy grail of music preference.

2) I think that 99% of your average listeners, have no knowledge or the desire to understand what is the "insider" history on the music charts. All they know, is that they were big hits in the early 70's.

While they may know that the songs were hits, it does not mean they have to like them...

3) If the charts were so "subjective", then why are so many books being published with chart data spanning over 50 years for the public to enjoy?

Publishers don't worry about how accurate charts are... the books sell. Why don't you ask why so many copies of the supermarket tabloids are sold? We know that most of the "facts" are pretty subjective, yet people buy them.

At this point, I could bring up a discussion of urban legends... lies that become fact after too much repetition.

The charts provide valuable data on the history of a prior hit and are ranked as such. It is what it is and that's what we go by. Record collectors use it, oldies aficionados use them and radio stations use them. If 27 songs reached #1 in 1973 according to Billboard, then that's the official tally we use.

That's a really simplistic view. Radio stations only use chart books as a point of reference. They don't program based on past chart positions, they program based on today's appeal of songs.

Here's a neat use of chart books: I know a guy who did a morning show who would, every Monday (in diary days, of course) play the "How could this have become a hit" song... he had production edit a wretched but top 20 song to about 1:20 and then he took calls from listeners, most of whom said, "Ewww... I don't know how I could have liked that one...."

A common gimmick on many other morning shows was the "dreaded morning oldie" which consisted of about the same thing... an ugly reminder of how our tastes change over time and that hearing evidence of our past musical transgressions is embarrassing and, ultimately, funny.

 

[oldies76]

Here's a neat use of chart books: I know a guy who did a morning show who would, every Monday (in diary days, of course) play the "How could this have become a hit" song... he had production edit a wretched but top 20 song to about 1:20 and then he took calls from listeners, most of whom said, "Ewww... I don't know how I could have liked that one...."

Oh, they probably played "Dominique" or "My Ding A Ling".... ;D

 

[davideduardo]

Here's a neat use of chart books: I know a guy who did a morning show who would, every Monday (in diary days, of course) play the "How could this have become a hit" song... he had production edit a wretched but top 20 song to about 1:20 and then he took calls from listeners, most of whom said, "Ewww... I don't know how I could have liked that one...."

Oh, they probably played "Dominique" or "My Ding A Ling".... ;D

One show I know the host of did it for years and years without repeating a song. Some of the more notorious were "Honey" and "Teen Angel" and "Yummy Yummy" and "Ring My Bell". But there are hundreds of those songs.

Occasionally someone would call and say, "Hey, I like that song" and the host would don a priestly voice and ring a bell and say, "I pardon you, my son" (or daughter as the case might have been). It was always good for a couple of laughs, too.

Most people don't want to be reminded that they wore bell bottoms, tie died shirts and had hair that was too long or too scruffy... music changes too.

There was even a time when we thought a Corvair looked cool.

 

[Tom Wells]

A Corvair (65'-69') looks better than most new "fat-a**ed" vehicles.

This discussion is very much like a discussion defending "over-styling" on prostitutes.
"Hey, they HAVE to wear too much makeup and skimpy clothing, It's a business."

"You don't really expect prostitutes to wear normal clothes and makeup, or represent a normal
slice of humanity, no, they have to be a caricature to be profitable."

Just endlessly parroting the music-test results only verifies that the folks who are selected for such testing are
very carefully picked to be exactly the type of people who will reaffirm the intended conclusion.

I'm truly baffled at the difference between "Maggie May" and "Want Ads".
They both sound like an advertisement for promiscuity and loose living from 1971.

If anything, Rod Stewart's song is more morally offensive, so why is it that it's OK to play, but not the other?

 

[amfmsw]

I believe MOST markets are individualistic, having their own fabric and vibrancy. As a 'yoot' listening to CKLW/WLS/WCFL/WOWO/WBT/WABC/WIBG/WFIL/WAEB/WSBA/WRAW/WMID, I could hear the suble differences from the cities to the towns, from the midwest to the East coast to the South. Central PA to the Lehigh Valley to Philly. All unique and all regional but LOCAL. It's what made me fall in love with the industry. Not today's homogenized milk bottle. Honey Cone has been a staple on Philly/SJ/NYC "oldies" radio since ever...all their hits, including "One Monkey Don't Stop No Show" still get airplay around here. Same for "Suavacito" Malo. Other local talent too, like the almost anything by Hall & Oates or other blue eyed soul. In this area, Soul and Motown are winners. I still hear tunes like "Ask The Lonely" 4 Tops in weekday rotation too.

I was very fortunate to have grown up in an era with such strong creative talent, great unimpeded signals (except the WIBG Night null-but that allowed WCFL to boom in!), unbelievable music, and in a geographic area where the old Philco 70 could grab this stuff outta the sky.

This is probably the best thread ever written on this board. It's intelligent and respectful and we're all learning something, even though we don't agree. I think the #1 thing most of us agreee on is we do not like a 350 song rotation of burned out 30 year old tunes, and there must be a better way to be more inclusive. DE insists on clinical research. So far, technically, he is proven, like Drake-Chenault in the 70's.

But MY theory is Oldies Based stations are REALLY based on Kinetic Anchoring. The emotional attachment, memories or fondness for the times relived by the playing of a song, especially a NON-ABRASIVE, pop tune hat has monster "Oh Wow" factor. Maybe that's why NYC & Philly CBS O&O Oldies Stations are such great performers...they're still local musically. NY is still peppering with Dion & The Belmonts & Capris. WOGL is peppering with Cameo-Parkway/TSOP label hits, despite national research. They haven't lost their roots of their cities.

BTW...Corvairs were pretty damn cool...you could get one with A/C, twin carb spyder V-6 and Turbo-Charged. Couldn't do that with an air-cooled VW. And when you closed the doors, your ear drums didn't pop. Yeah the heaters were a little better too.

 

[Tom Wells]

And when you blipped the gas pedal on a Corvair, the engine would make the tail of the car "wag" a little bit, right and left.

When you turned into a corner really quick, the Corvair said "YEAH!", when most cars said, "Whoa!, Nellie,
I'm gonna have to roll way over to make that turn".

If you want to pick on an ugly car, use the AMC Pacer or the Dodge/Plymouth Aspen/Volare.
They were so ugly they were theft proof in any neighborhood.
No one wanted them to steal for keeps, and they were so ugly that even joy riders wouldn't dare be seen in them.

 

[firepoint525]

Although I'm sure some listeners to the classic hits station of 2023 will be complaining about their hometown station only playing ONE Third Eye Blind track or ONLY three by Alanis Morissette.

No they won't. They won't be listening. WE are the last generation of radio as we presently know it. The next generation won't complain about limited playlists, because they won't be listening to those limited playlists. By then, radio stations will be all talk and/or sports. It's headed that way now.

Radio reminds me of the kid that we all went to school with, the kid who tried to hang out with the "popular" kids, and ditched his "real" friends in order to do so. Apparently, they younger set is more popular with radio now, and they (radio) have ditched us. (By the way, I am 49 now, not over 55 :). Of course, advertisers represent the "peer pressure" in this analogy, trying to force radio to hang out with the "younger" kids, apparently ignorant of the fact that kids today get their music from sources other than radio. Most of the biggest hits of the past year were born on youtube, not on radio. Of course, that is nothing new. We got many of our biggest hits of the '80s from MTV, before MTV itself became irrelevant.

 

[oldies76]

We got many of our biggest hits of the '80s from MTV, before MTV itself became irrelevant.

1982-1986 MTV, priceless!

 

[landtuna]

Since the topic thread now apparently includes "tune outs" for automobiles.....

The 1965 Corvair was one of the most beautiful cars ever produced (IMHO of course). I was the proud owner of one and still have the trophies won racing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=1965+yenko+corvair&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=mH9&tbo=u&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6avlUNPwLaX8iwLXrYDICg&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=639

 

[davideduardo]

But MY theory is Oldies Based stations are REALLY based on Kinetic Anchoring. The emotional attachment, memories or fondness for the times relived by the playing of a song.

I've mentioned it previously, but at the end of the 90's, I was the moderator for a two day long perceptual project for the then oldies station in Washington, DC. This consisted of dozens of one-on-one interviews with listeners about their feelings towards the station, its morning show and jocks and music blend.

The finding of broad importance was epitomized by one interview where a late-40's woman who worked filing briefs in the second basement of the DoJ said that the music on the station represented the happiest days of her life... her high school years and the few years immediately following. The station took her back and made her feel good.

No comments on how deep the playlist was (it was the typical 700 to 800 core cuts of an oldies station, BTW), no comments about "why don't they play more songs?" No, the comments were all about mood and feeling.

[/quote]Maybe that's why NYC & Philly CBS O&O Oldies Stations are such great performers...they're still local musically. NY is still peppering with Dion & The Belmonts & Capris. WOGL is peppering with Cameo-Parkway/TSOP label hits, despite national research. They haven't lost their roots of their cities. [/quote]

There is no "national research". Stations like WOGL and WCBS test in their market and implement based on the local response. Both stations can afford to do multiple AMTs each year.

But what we do find is that in many cities, the degree of transiency is so great that much of the population did not grow up there. If you look at Dallas or Phoenix or Tampa or Miami or LA or Las Vegas you find that the "local hit" is not a present-day factor because most residents were not in those towns 30 to 40 years ago.

And that, in part, is what I was referring to in saying that the Rod Stewart / Honey Cone comparison depended on the market.

That said, many markets can no longer afford local music tests... some take a more generic format from a satellite-delivered provider, and others may share research with other stations in the same area or region. In either case, it beats programming based on one programmer's "feel" or just taking the top songs from Whitburn.

BTW...Corvairs were pretty damn cool...you could get one with A/C, twin carb spyder V-6 and Turbo-Charged. Couldn't do that with an air-cooled VW. And when you closed the doors, your ear drums didn't pop. Yeah the heaters were a little better too.

I had two of 'em. One of them the first year they came out, and another in '69. The second one had an engine fire on the PA Turnpike just outside Breezewood... not a fond memory. And it liked oil better than a Texas wildcater.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

They don't want to hear the Honey Cone song... just listening to it should be a clue as to why.

WOW, so then I have every reason to blame your industy's "research" for making radio suck. You folks are lucky in Philly, because Chicago's main stations are targeted only to the mid-life crisis aged white man.

Well I hope you enjoy The Eagles and David Bowie on endless loop, cause guess what? They both were played back to back on 2 Chicago FM's as I type this!!!!!! Now that's money-making creativity at it's finest!!!

The "research" must always get conducted immediately following Eagles concerts or Journey tribute bands!

 

[davideduardo]

Just endlessly parroting the music-test results only verifies that the folks who are selected for such testing are
very carefully picked to be exactly the type of people who will reaffirm the intended conclusion.

No, music test participants are picked to be within the core age appeal group of a station's format and they must listen enough to the station or the station's format to know the music they are going to score. They are blind recruited by a third party professional recruiter, not the station and not the company conducting the tests.

So a CHR will test mostly 18-34 year old women, and a classic hits station will recruit 35-54 year olds of both genders, and a Hot AC might select 25-44 year old women... and so on.

I'm truly baffled at the difference between "Maggie May" and "Want Ads". They both sound like an advertisement for promiscuity and loose living from 1971.If anything, Rod Stewart's song is more morally offensive, so why is it that it's OK to play, but not the other?

I think the original comparison was with Maggie May and Mr Big Stuff.

But radio programming is based on playing songs within a format that listeners to that format want to hear. It's no more based on moral judgment of the lyric than it is based on whether there is a hidden message if you play the song backwards...


[/quote]

 

[davideduardo]

They don't want to hear the Honey Cone song... just listening to it should be a clue as to why.

WOW, so then I have every reason to blame your industy's "research" for making radio suck. You folks are lucky in Philly, because Chicago's main stations are targeted only to the mid-life crisis aged white man.

I mentioned listening to "Mr Big Stuff" because the song sounds thin and dated in the context of the overall sound of most classic hits formats. And, in most markets, the listeners don't want to hear it for whatever reason.

Another poster has made a cogent argument for local research or local adaptation of playlists because some of those songs that don't have appeal today in many markets do seem attractive in a few. Generally, however, those are markets where there has been little inbound migration over the last 30 years or so and where "local sounds" are relevant to most of the population.

In any case, "research" is quite simply another way of saying "talking with a statistically valid and proportional sample of the consumer" in any field of endeavor. I fail to see how, in radio, getting feedback from listeners is a bad thing.

The "research" must always get conducted immediately following Eagles concerts or Journey tribute bands!

The chances of a concert attendee also being at a music test are minimal (yeah, I know you are being sarcastic.... but the statement is still absurd).

 

[oldies76]

I mentioned listening to "Mr Big Stuff" because the song sounds thin and dated in the context of the overall sound of most classic hits formats. And, in most markets, the listeners don't want to hear it for whatever reason.

Some listeners may not want to hear it...a big difference. Oh, btw, "Mr. Big Stuff" was played on KRTH yesterday at 3:06pm, the #2 market in the country, and it aired at 11:05pm Tuesday night on CBS-FM, the #1 market in the country.