He's just reflecting the bottom line realities of radio: It cannot afford to cater to 55+ listeners because ad buyers have -- that word again -- research that tells them those listeners are either too set in their consuming ways or too experienced/educated/smart/cynical to fall for a slick advertising pitch. Madison Avenue, and by extension radio, likes 'em young, stupid and gullible. Cynical? Sure, but advertising has always been a cynical, deceptive racket. Armed with statistical research, it's now a racket that can force radio to throw an entire generation under the bus.landtuna said:
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Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?
- Thread starter PirateJohnny
- Start date
oldies76 said:
The kind of stations that might play the songs you think they should play are 99.9% commercial operations. That means they look for advertisers to pay the expenses and to, hopefully, leave a profit as well.
If advertisers don't want to reach people over 55, and will not pay a single penny to reach them, then there is no way for radio to program for that age group.
As I said, "oldies" stations can work, profitably, in smaller markets or with peripheral or limited coverage stations in larger markets as long as there is a base of smaller direct accounts ("direct" means they don't place adverting via ad agencies). But in the larger markets, doing oldies or otherwise programming to a predominantly over 55 audience just can't be profitable.
DavidEduardo said:
When I lived in Noo Yawk it seemed that every ad was "local" (most Noo Yawkers don't realize there is a big country just west of the Hudson River). Those ads may have been agency-bought but they didn't sound like it.
Out here in Palookaville it seems that virtually all ads are also local.
Going to a smaller-yet market I am absolutely certain that all advertising on KODS (Reno) is local.
Whyizzat?
landtuna said:
The term I used is "direct" and not "local". In many cases, larger local businesses use local ad agencies... and those agencies buy tools like Nielsen and Arbitron and such to analyze and justify their ad placements.
Car dealer associations, larger car dealers, local retailers with large volume or multiple locations, etc., etc., generally use agencies. Businesses that are only concentrated in a single state or smaller multi-state area will use agencies, too.
In Reno and Las Vegas, the casino and significant hospitality accounts all use agencies. In fact, 30% of revenue in Reno is national agency business, and something like 30% more is local and regional agency business. Of course, a low rated station or one with bad demos is not going to get much agency business, and will sell at much lower rates...
In Phoenix, an even higher percentage of business is placed by agencies. In most cases, a good tip-off that an account is managed by an agency is that it advertises on more than one station or in multiple types of media.
And yes, there are lots of local agencies. When I was in management in a market almost identical in size to Phoenix, I always had over 120 local agencies on my list, and that was without counting house agencies.
KODS is in the top 6 or 7 stations in billings in Reno (out of 27 commercial stations) so they are likely getting a lot of agency business. Of course, KODS is not in a small market... Reno is #87 in billings.
An account is only "direct" if a station seller can walk in to the store or business and talk to a person who can actually sign a contract.
T
Thomps2525
Guest
Golly gee, when I mentioned WLNG I really heated up the discussion! I've gotten some friends and co-workers hooked on WLNG, but I admit they're not in that coveted 18-to-39 demographic. They do, however, love hearing all the oldies. I'd love to see the age-group breakdown of WLNG's audience. In the mid-1990s, after radio legend and "Oldies But Goodies" legend Art Laboe switched the old KRLA in Pasadena to a 1950s-60s-70s r&b oldies format (although it wasn't technically r&b oldies; it was r&b songs that were big pop hits), a high percentage of listeners were in their teens and early 20s. They weren't even born when those songs were hits. And, much as I hate the trend, 1960s-70s songs continue to be used in tv commercials and on movie soundtracks. I'm guessing---and I'm not the guesser I used to be---that if a radio station started playing the 1950s hits again, a new generation of young people would discover, and enjoy, the songs...and we who are older would enjoy re-hearing the songs. Someday there might even be a "Music Of Your Life"-type network that plays the early rock'n'roll and r&b. I can only hope.
LARadioRewind said:
Actually, the "sales demo" is 25-54, followed by 18-49 and 18-34. But that's on agency buys. I don't think there is a lot of agency buying of what used to be the Riverhead / Hamptons market.
On average, about 50th in 18-49, 40th 25-54 and about 19th in 55+.
Again, I don't think WLNG cumes nearly half the folks in its 60 dbu signal area due to the music. WLNG is one of many examples of a great little local radio station that is firmly rooted in the community.
T
Thomps2525
Guest
Golly gee, January 1 is almost over with and until now I forgot today's anniversary: It was January 1, 1958 when Chuck Blore switched KFWB in Los Angeles from MOR to top 40 as "Color Radio." The Oldies Loon website ( http://oldiesloon.com/ ) has a lot of old radio station surveys. Check out the disparate artists who were on KFWB's first playlist; the station's top 30 would soon expand to a "Fabulous Forty": http://www.users.qwest.net/~oldiesloon/kf010458.htm
oldies76 said:LARadioRewind said:
An interesting concept! You know, that's a good idea! I'd bet, that some young people would catch on....well to the true rock and roll sound anyways. I'm not sure about Patti Page, Rosemary Clooney or Perry Como just yet.
DRC-FM tried to tap into that concept with a promo a few year back boasting "We play the music you grew up with ... and now your kids can too!" If it attracted teens and 20s to oldies at all, they apparently didn't show up in the ratings. The older songs began to be eliminated shortly after that promo stopped running.
landtuna said:
It wasn't my intention to start a discussion of the merits and downfalls of specific Phoenix radio stations.
The purpose was to show that, if there's a song I don't care for, I have a lot of options as far as stations that play some songs I like. I probably have more options as a Classic Hits listener, in fact. If all I liked was Country, there are only three local stations where I can hear it. Hard Rock? Two. Classical? One.
But if I want hit songs from the 60s through the 80s, there are TEN places on the local radio dial that play them. Maybe not exclusively, as KOOL does...but if KOOL plays "You Lght Up My Life" , I tune out and KDKB has just started playing "Smoke On The Water", it won't matter to me that KDKB doesn't play all classic hits for at least the next six minutes. Same if KESZ is playing Fleetwood Mac's "Gypsy" (for four minutes).
And because I don't HAVE to be listening to Classic Hits, the next song KDKB, KESZ or one of the other 7 stations plays might be something that appeals to me, too.
That's why it's so important for stations not to risk playing songs with significant negatives.
LARadioRewind said:
I'm guessing that about as many young people would be attracted by that as young people 35 years ago were motivated to run out and buy Rudy Vallee 78s when MOYL brought that music back to radio.
michael, Re: #22
In SJ, Oldies, Classic Hits and Classic Rock stations have been playing "Waterloo Sunset" - Kinks for years. It was on the Drake-Chenault XT-40 format and others. THEY must have tested it! Maybe today's consultants better include it in their next test list? I see nothing off-the-wall about it. No more than "Stairway To Heaven"
In SJ, Oldies, Classic Hits and Classic Rock stations have been playing "Waterloo Sunset" - Kinks for years. It was on the Drake-Chenault XT-40 format and others. THEY must have tested it! Maybe today's consultants better include it in their next test list? I see nothing off-the-wall about it. No more than "Stairway To Heaven"
amfmsw said:
Your market must be an anomaly. I don't recall hearing it even on AOR in Boston, and Boston was on a lot of British music that markets further west wouldn't touch -- Dave Dee, Dozy, Beaky, Mick & Tich's "Bend It" went top 10 there in the winter of '66, for example. "Waterloo Sunset" is a great song, and was a huge hit in the UK, but it's no "Stairway to Heaven," at least in terms of listener recognition nationwide in the US.
michael hagerty said:
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Michael but generation 1 & 2 rock/pop was an entirely different breed than the crooning of Rudy Vallee and Bing Crosby.
I remember a company Christmas party in the 70's during the Disco era. Instead of the current Disco hits the company brought in a live Big Band and it was a tremendous hit with the employees - most of whom were under 40 years of age. Both Disco and Big Band were essentially dance music and so could replace each other to a degree. Not so with crooners and RnR.
landtuna said:
The PPM data says the opposite. There's no human factor involved and the sample size is sufficient to be a true reflection of the larger population. I wish you were right, but the data is right there and says the stopset switchers are a minority; they stick with the station through the ads because they know that a songs they like by an artist they know is on the other side.
CTListener said:
Not counting the HD2 signals (which are a PITA to switch back and forth) someone with FM analog radio only has but two choices in my market for Oldies/Classic Hits & Classic Rock. The odds of hitting the pre-set to the other station has a limited chance of (a) getting a song you like or (b) stop setting right into another commercial. Sometimes it is just easier to leave the radio alone and wait for the next song. There is no guarantee that it will be something you like though - particularly me, who becomes more and more dissatisfied with KOOL playlists every week.
My problem has been solved by (a) HD2 signals which are Classic Hits based (although there is little pre-1970 on either) and virtually no commercials (at least not the tons on the main signal) and (b) my personal flash stick/DVD player which has nothing but the songs I like and no commercials.
If and when a local station, even AM with a strong signal, comes back on-air with the music of MY life and a reasonable commercial load and jocks with entertainment value I will gladly listen again. There are radio stations in other markets that do this. If nobody in Phoenix is willing to do it then they have lost me as a radio listener. I'll still listen to radio but it will be out of market.
landtuna said:
As "our" music fades further into the past, even the AMs will drop it because the advertisers just won't want anything to do with it, not even the locals. HD is a dead man walking and personal recorded media lack the surprise factor of radio, although if you know every song on a 500-song classic rocker's playlist the radio experience becomes more like your iPod on shuffle play with songs you don't like mixed in. I stay interested in FM through the public/college side of the dial and sports talk/play-by-play. Obviously, if nothing about those choices appeals to you and all you want is 40+-year-old popular music, radio has probably lost you. But guess what? They don't care because you, I and everyone else like us will be dead soon enough and there's no future listener base to demand that old music anymore.
landtuna said:
We live in the same city. There may only be two you're willing to listen to, but as I outlined in detail, there are 10 analog signals that play hit records from the 60s-80s (KDKB, KOOL, EVA, MIX, The Peak, KESZ, KSLX, Mega, KOY and KAZG). f you're programming KOOL and play "Disco Duck", and I tune into The Peak and hear "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" or EVA and they're playing "Suavecito", they win. And they might hold me with the next record they play. And the next. It might be 10 songs before they make me hit the button and go somewhere else.
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