Why Can't CBS-FM Be Like K-Earth 101?

[KFodor]

I agree the listener passion for the old CBS-FM was underestimated by the management. Jack was a disaster. You don't kill something that's loved, then make fun of the original product, which is what CBS did at first with Jack-FM in New York.

But, what some listeners "want" here is undeliverable, due to the demands of advertisers. I don't agree with this, but the station can't change what the people that pay to advertise on it want. Unless, that is: the advertisers change their attitudes, which is highly unlikely. To continue this inane argument is preaching to the choir. Radio wouldn't have abandoned the original oldies format if substantial money could still be made. But, revenues were dropping and rapidly.

The 1970's was 30-40 years ago. I do think there are some 1955-1963 titles which are "timeless" and could fit within the confines of "classic hits". But, it's a small number of titles.

Everything has a "shelf life". The early years of rock and roll is approaching the end of that shelf life. The 60's is quickly approaching it, and the 70's (80's, too) will surely follow.

The listeners can "want" anything. The advertisers are the ones who allow it to happen.

 

[cyberdad]

To me, we're talking about comparing a high-energy drone with a confused drone.

But I did hear K-Earth play "La Bomba" yesterday morning!

 

[scooty430]

It's true that music may have a shelf-life.

Yet some music is rather timeless. Look how long classical music was viable on the radio - and still is in a handful of places. And there are still orchestras playing music from the 1800s to packed audiences week in and week out, nationwide. Worldwide, even.

I think some of the early rock and roll, the Beatles, and some classic rock like Led Zeppelin is timeless in the same way. I'm not saying it can be a viable radio product (there may not be anything profitable on the radio quite soon,) but I don't think that that music will ever die entirely. It's just too good.

 

[cyberdad]

Scooty...

Great point. Who ever decided music had to have a short shelf-life?

Every been to the Napoleon House in New Orleans? Classical Music bar that's been busy, if not jam-packed every time I've been there. Then there's the Proms in London every September. Live Classical Music. Fills up its section of Hyde park with mostly Gen-X and Gen Y types. And speaking of England....there's also Classic FM. No, its not "classic rock", its classical music with almost a "top 40-esque" presentation, and doing quite well as a national network.

 

[DavidKaye]

WCBS-FM is 9th 25-54 in NY. KRTH is 11th in 25-54. Both are 7th in cume in their markets.
One might conclude that each is doing a good job in its respective market, and that messing with either would be unreasonable.

But, would many advertisers want to buy all the way down to 9th or 11th? Wouldn't most advertisers prefer to buy just 3 or 4 deep? Or am I missing something here?

 

[Boss Radio]

Scooty...

Great point. Who ever decided music had to have a short shelf-life?

Every been to the Napoleon House in New Orleans? Classical Music bar that's been busy, if not jam-packed every time I've been there. Then there's the Proms in London every September. Live Classical Music. Fills up its section of Hyde park with mostly Gen-X and Gen Y types. And speaking of England....there's also Classic FM. No, its not "classic rock", its classical music with almost a "top 40-esque" presentation, and doing quite well as a national network.

Who decided? The public, with its ever-changing tastes.

Most of the examples you cite have nothing to do with the experience of listening to the radio and responding to the messages of advertisers.

 

[adma]

Most of the examples you cite have nothing to do with the experience of listening to the radio and responding to the messages of advertisers.

...yes, and what kinds of advertisers, and what kinds of respondents?

Though you are correct. Those examples have nothing to do with the kinds of yokels and rubes who're prone to being pigeons to the messages of radio advertisers. It's like how the best webcasts have nothing to do with the experience of listening and responding to the messages of pop-up spamvertisers...

 

[davideduardo]

But, would many advertisers want to buy all the way down to 9th or 11th? Wouldn't most advertisers prefer to buy just 3 or 4 deep? Or am I missing something here?

Generally, the idea of a campaign is to reach a certain percentage of the market a certain number of times a week. Markets with lots of fragmentation (small difference in audience size from #1 to #10) require using many stations to get the total market cume reach, even taking into account the fact tht listeners have 2 to 3 favorite stations.

If you only use two or three stations, you may miss 80% of the market... OK for a smaller retailer, but not OK for chains, package goods, etc.

 

[scooty430]

I think if I were advertising these days I'd use a billboard. Everybody sees it.

Radio would make me nervous. In your car, you change the station and miss the ad. At home or in the office, you're only half-listening, especially when ads come on.

I'd also be hesitant to buy if the ratings are determined by people willing to (accurately) carry a PPM for two years. A person willing to participate would either have to have an enourmous sense of goodwill (to a big corporation...) or be really excited to earn lots of little five dollar checks every couple weeks (that have to be deposited...almost not worth it!) What kind of a population would do it?

But back to "viable product...." Somehow radio went from having a variety of reasonably good programming to having a very narrow choice of mass-appeal stuff. To use a food analogy, it's as if all the quality four star restaurants in town closed, and all the neat cheap mom-and-pop hole in the walls closed too. All that's left is McDonalds, Subway, and Pizza Hut. Popular......crap.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

I think if I were advertising these days I'd use a billboard. Everybody sees it.

Radio would make me nervous. In your car, you change the station and miss the ad. At home or in the office, you're only half-listening, especially when ads come on.

I'd also be hesitant to buy if the ratings are determined by people willing to (accurately) carry a PPM for two years. A person willing to participate would either have to have an enourmous sense of goodwill (to a big corporation...) or be really excited to earn lots of little five dollar checks every couple weeks (that have to be deposited...almost not worth it!) What kind of a population would do it?

But back to "viable product...." Somehow radio went from having a variety of reasonably good programming to having a very narrow choice of mass-appeal stuff. To use a food analogy, it's as if all the quality four star restaurants in town closed, and all the neat cheap mom-and-pop hole in the walls closed too. All that's left is McDonalds, Subway, and Pizza Hut. Popular......crap.

Well thats a strange analogy, because McDonalds, Subway and Pizza Hut feed more people (and in radio terms, would have bigger audiences and be more effective) than any four-star or mom and pop restaurants that have ever existed.
And it's solely your opinion. There are some four-star restaurants that you leave and have been so unsatisfying that you stop for a cheeseburger on the way home. So those restaurants you cite are VERY "viable".

As for billboards, they are unable to make the impression that radio does. People remember commercials for decades....."Palisades Park"...."Rrrraceway park"........."Aamco....double A....mco"...and others....do you often have
conversations about billboard advertising? Radio advertising, when used and targeted properly is still extremely effective.

Back to the thread.....KRTH is a very different radio station than CBS FM.....different imaging, different music era, and different personality style. Even back in the day, the core inspiration for each of the stations, KHJ and WABC, were light years apart in their own differences.

 

[Boss Radio]

Most of the examples you cite have nothing to do with the experience of listening to the radio and responding to the messages of advertisers.

...yes, and what kinds of advertisers, and what kinds of respondents?

Though you are correct. Those examples have nothing to do with the kinds of yokels and rubes who're prone to being pigeons to the messages of radio advertisers. It's like how the best webcasts have nothing to do with the experience of listening and responding to the messages of pop-up spamvertisers...

Makes no sense, but that's OK.

 

[scooty430]

I think if I were advertising these days I'd use a billboard. Everybody sees it.

Radio would make me nervous. In your car, you change the station and miss the ad. At home or in the office, you're only half-listening, especially when ads come on.

I'd also be hesitant to buy if the ratings are determined by people willing to (accurately) carry a PPM for two years. A person willing to participate would either have to have an enourmous sense of goodwill (to a big corporation...) or be really excited to earn lots of little five dollar checks every couple weeks (that have to be deposited...almost not worth it!) What kind of a population would do it?

But back to "viable product...." Somehow radio went from having a variety of reasonably good programming to having a very narrow choice of mass-appeal stuff. To use a food analogy, it's as if all the quality four star restaurants in town closed, and all the neat cheap mom-and-pop hole in the walls closed too. All that's left is McDonalds, Subway, and Pizza Hut. Popular......crap.

Well thats a strange analogy, because McDonalds, Subway and Pizza Hut feed more people (and in radio terms, would have bigger audiences and be more effective) than any four-star or mom and pop restaurants that have ever existed.
And it's solely your opinion. There are some four-star restaurants that you leave and have been so unsatisfying that you stop for a cheeseburger on the way home. So those restaurants you cite are VERY "viable".

OK, how about another analogy?

Let's say Baskin Robbins decided 31 flavors was too many. Let's just sell vanilla, the top seller. That will please the most people and make us the most money.

And people wonder why nobody listens to radio anymore....

 

[cyberdad]

OK, how about another analogy?

Let's say Baskin Robbins decided 31 flavors was too many.  Let's just sell vanilla, the top seller.  That will please the most people and make us the most money. 

And people wonder why nobody listens to radio anymore.... 


[/quote]

Exactly....its the bland leading the bland. 

I'd also add to those who don't like this....Quit your whining and get an Ipod.  Or find a stream on the internet.  The fact of the matter is there are more and better opportunities to hear what you like than ever.  (But by and large its all beyond the bounds of terrestial radio).

 

[scooty430]

The hardcore music fan actually has MORE choices, if they're willing to do as you say: get an ipod, visit music blogs, listen to streams and podcasts, time-shift the Sunday night specialty programs, get XM, etc.

Yet something has been lost with everyone scattered this way. Listening to, say, WNEW in its heyday, you felt part of a group. I can hear the same music on XM Deep Tracks, but it's not quite the same....

 

[DavidKaye]

The 1970's was 30-40 years ago. I do think there are some 1955-1963 titles which are "timeless" and could fit within the confines of "classic hits". But, it's a small number of titles.

Indeed, music from bygone decades is fun to hear, but we're music buffs. Most people aren't. Sure, they'll listen to a song or two, but not much more than that. It's hard to base a format on music that isn't current, unless it's specifically positioned as "elevator music", aka unobtrusive background music meant to be soothing, from which the soul has been removed.

Case in point is Wilbur Harrison's Kansas City. It's a song I can take about once every 6 months, and yet many oldies stations have used it because it's an icon of the era. If I'm listening to a station and that song comes on, I'll tolerate if I haven't heard it recently, but I'll change the station or turn off the radio if I've heard it or something similar in the past month. And I'm a music buff.

 

[DavidKaye]

Let's say Baskin Robbins decided 31 flavors was too many. Let's just sell vanilla, the top seller. That will please the most people and make us the most money.

And people wonder why nobody listens to radio anymore....

It's been awhile since you've been to Baskin Robbins, eh? Look at their flavor selection and you'll find that more than half are variations on chocolate and vanilla. Seriously. They found that it simply wasn't worth it to have exotic flavors.

You don't believe me? Here, check out the 8 most popular B-R flavors, from their website:
http://www.baskinrobbins.com/IceCream/

 

[cyberdad]

What about Wilbert Harrison's version of Kansas City?  After all, he sold more copies than Little Richard, The Beatles....and presumably Wilbur.  ;D

 

[davideduardo]

I'd also be hesitant to buy if the ratings are determined by people willing to (accurately) carry a PPM for two years. A person willing to participate would either have to have an enourmous sense of goodwill (to a big corporation...) or be really excited to earn lots of little five dollar checks every couple weeks (that have to be deposited...almost not worth it!) What kind of a population would do it?

Since that is not how it works, I can't answer your question. Metered households receive points, which can be used to purchase goods and services. They do not get checks in the mail (although a recent additional incentive was store gift cards). Since the PPM is still under testing, and not "currency" in NY, the PPM for the moment has no effect on the ratings we see.

Two years is the maximum carriage time, not a requirement.

But back to "viable product...." Somehow radio went from having a variety of reasonably good programming to having a very narrow choice of mass-appeal stuff. To use a food analogy, it's as if all the quality four star restaurants in town closed, and all the neat cheap mom-and-pop hole in the walls closed too. All that's left is McDonalds, Subway, and Pizza Hut. Popular......crap.

I see there being more formats in NYC, for example, than in the past. From smooth jazz to Latin AC to Urban AC, it is a lot different from the times in the 60's when the FMs were not yet viable, and there were three or four top 40's, three or four MORs, etc.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

OK, how about another analogy?

Let's say Baskin Robbins decided 31 flavors was too many. Let's just sell vanilla, the top seller. That will please the most people and make us the most money.

And people wonder why nobody listens to radio anymore....

I see what you're getting at...but its another poor analogy.
To keep on the example.....
It would be what do you do if you're Baskin and Robbins and you actually increase your flavors from 31 to 71, but people still keep buying the same original 3 (Vanilla, Chocolate, Strawberry)...do you then expand to 131? Is that really the answer? Or would you give the people what they want?

The bottom line is....I don't think is a "poor programming" issue.

 

[adma]

Here's another question: how many of you who may have frequented Baskin-Robbins as a child, parent, whatever, perhaps some 31 *ahem* years ago, do so now? And if not, why not?

I'm not offering an answer, because there can be any number of answers--but somewhere there, there's a metaphor for whether, or how, or to whom radio is "attractive" now vs then...