WIIN 780 on the air

[rfburns]

I've been gone from Jackson for 25 years, but seem to recall that WJNT towers are not very tall because of proximity to airport. Am I correct on that? That may have something to do with what is perceived as lack of daytime coverage. As for night, it's highly directional. WHAM 1180 Rochester NY is one of the old-line 1-A clear-channel stations, and the null toward them (generally NE) is very deep. This started out as a 1 kw daytimer, WKKE (Kicker) on 1190. When they first moved to 1180 to get night operation and more day power, the original DA-N was really bad - couldn't even listen to it on Lakeland Drive (circa 1980). Apparently the pattern got modified as a year later the signal was better in NE Jackson, tho not great. By then it was running Music of Your Life, with Bob Rall as part owner and GM.

The proximity to the airport may have been part of it, but it wasn't the main reason. The main reason the towers are short (170 ft.) is that they don't have to be painted, lit or registered. It would be major headache to keep those towers painted and lit, considering they are located in the middle of a swamp!

Yes... WJNT has to protect WHAM in Rochester NY, so the pattern is extremely tight in that direction. Years ago, Bob Rall told me he the engineer at the time to "relax" the pattern some, but I don't know how much. I do know the night pattern is operating correctly now, and you can't hear it very well north of Lakeland Drive. The Cuban interference on 1180 doesn't improve things either, but that's what WJNT-FM1 is for.

Actually the first set of call letters were WPRL (Pearl) when it was on 1190. David Clark put the original station on the air with a studio and transmitter site off Hwy 49 South in Richland. The WKKE call letters were assigned about the time they moved to 1180 and upped the daytime power to 10kw.

RFB

 

[J Alex Bowab]

A 170 ft tower isn't even a 1/4 wave at 1180, so it's a very inefficient system. From what I recall, towers were sometimes kept at 199 ft since 200 ft triggered requirement to paint and light them. You are correct about WPRL but those calls didn't last long. Think this was about 1979. John Friskillo and John David Martin were among the first announcers. Couldn't imagine a daytime AM country station ever amounting to anything. It took a format change and going fulltime.

 

[DeadElvis]

Wow. That's interesting...

By my calculations, a 1/4 λ radiator @ 1180 kHz would only be 198.3'. You would have thought they would have tried to get closer than they did.

Of course, at night they have multiple issues: low power (500W), an odd array, horrible ground conductivity, and massive Cuban interference. It's too bad.

DE

 

[K4WRF]

That facility uses 76 degrees of tower height *plus* 14 degrees of "top loading" for a total of 90 electrical degrees. It is a common practice to utilize the top set of guy wires to accomplish this. FCC allows this to maintain minimum efficiency and/or control sky-wave radiation.

 

[rfburns]

The top loading is correct Watt. The top set of guy wires are bonded to the top of the tower. The biggest problem I've had with that setup is the original fiberglass insulator rods on the day tower were fine for the original 10kw, but not for 50kw. I've had all 3 rods on the top guys replaced with much longer ones to correct that little problem. That was a scary sight - driving up to the transmitter site and seeing one of the top guy wires dangling from a "slightly less than vertical" tower! Never did any damage to the tower - Bo Haley always managed to pull it back vertical. I developed a lot respect for his tower climbers!

RFB

 

[tomservo]

I'm an unabashed tower hunter but the WJNT array out in the swamp will be one I probably never get to see in person. It appears to be too short to see from any of the nearby roads as well.

In other news, I was in Jackson Thursday and WIIN was not on the air.

 

[flytrap]

While we are on the subject, maybe some of you engineer types can answer this question. I've looked at quite a few coverage maps of local stations on the Radio-Locator.com site, and nearly every non directional AM station in the Jackson area has a good circular pattern to the north and east, except in the direction of highway 49 towards Hattisburg. The patterns all look like they have a big chuck eaten out of them in that direction. Why is that? Is it because of hills, trees or something about the soil? I've always wondered why AM reception was so lousy in my direction, now after seeing the maps I can see why. What gives?

 

[tomservo]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it's due to the exceptionally high ground conductivity in the delta.

 

[J Alex Bowab]

You can find a ground conductivity map on line. Soil conductivity is expressed in terms of "mhos" (ohm spelled backwards) and it ranges from 0.5 to 30. Down here where I am (near Gulf Shores) the conductivity is about a "1" because the soil is sandy. Sand, after all, is glass, and glass is an insulator, not a conductor. Inland it gets a little better. I haven't looked at the map in a few years, but from what I remember, some areas around Jackson range from a 4 to an 8. Draw a circle around Jackson, and some of the area is in one conductivity, some in another ... so even tho the station is non-DA, the pattern is not circular.

Salt water, by comparison, has conductivity many, many times higher than the best soil. Here on the coast during the day, you can hear AM stations in Cuba, Tampa, even Corpus Christi, rolling in across the salt path. (No, I don't know whether the oil slick affects it.)

Back to dry land, though, I seem to remember that Texas and downstate Illinois have some of the best conductivity. A 50 kw station in DFW on a given freq will cover far more area than will a comparable facility in my area, at least over land (tho its signal will go out in the Gulf forever). The marshy area of south Louisiana (New Orleans to Houston) also kicks ass.

Here in the Mobile/Pensacola area, I often thought that FM overtook AM to a greater degree, and sooner, than it did elsewhere, because the AMs here have pitiful coverage, power/freq notwithstanding.

Because of the shape of the Gulf Coast, and New Orleans' position along it, the Big Easy AM stations travel the salt path to coastal areas of Miss, Ala, Fla well ... all the way to Panama City and beyond.

I was just thinking back of the coverage map we did on 1300 AM when my group bought WRBC and changed it to WKXI AM. I think the Pearl River was the border between two conductivity areas (maybe a 4 and an 8). The semi-circle to the west was larger than the one to the east. Looked like a screwy DA pattern tho it was non-DA.

All that said, it would seem WJNT is better off having its xmtr site in a swampy area (makes for a better ground system).

 

[J Alex Bowab]

DE, up above, says 1180 suffers from Cuban interference. I haven't listened lately, but in the past, the reality was that the Voice of America station in the Fla Keys on that freq was beaming programming to Cuba, and the island nation was transmitting a jamming noise to make listening difficult (not in the same sense as "we be jamming"). In decades past, WWL 870 and an 1140 station in Miami broadcast anti-Castro programming late night and were also subject to the jamming.

 

[rfburns]

I'm an unabashed tower hunter but the WJNT array out in the swamp will be one I probably never get to see in person. It appears to be too short to see from any of the nearby roads as well.

In other news, I was in Jackson Thursday and WIIN was not on the air.

If you're headed thru Pearl on Hwy 80, you can see the 3 towers as you go by Fairmont Plaza. You have to know where to look, but you can catch a quick glimpse.

RFB

 

[K4WRF]

The top loading is correct Watt. The top set of guy wires are bonded to the top of the tower. The biggest problem I've had with that setup is the original fiberglass insulator rods on the day tower were fine for the original 10kw, but not for 50kw. I've had all 3 rods on the top guys replaced with much longer ones to correct that little problem. That was a scary sight - driving up to the transmitter site and seeing one of the top guy wires dangling from a "slightly less than vertical" tower! Never did any damage to the tower - Bo Haley always managed to pull it back vertical. I developed a lot respect for his tower climbers!

RFB

Know that sinking feeling very well!
Had that exact scenario up here on 1160 about three years ago. When they added the top-loading some time back, they had simply by-passed the top insulator with a couple pieces of #10 copper wire. High rf plus galvanic action eventually chewed right through the preform. Long funny story on this call-out, too long for this already hijacked thread.
w/

 

[K4WRF]

I was just thinking back of the coverage map we did on 1300 AM when my group bought WRBC and changed it to WKXI AM. I think the Pearl River was the border between two conductivity areas (maybe a 4 and an 8). The semi-circle to the west was larger than the one to the east. Looked like a screwy DA pattern tho it was non-DA.

All that said, it would seem WJNT is better off having its xmtr site in a swampy area (makes for a better ground system).

The FCC M-3 map indicates three conductivity zones intersect just southeast of Jackson ranging from 8, 4 and 2 mmho respectively. I never have discovered how they came up with those maps, but from years of taking and analyzing field intensity measurements, I can state that some of those predictions are indeed optimistic. I dare say you can find soil down there that is more like 1 mmho or even 0.5 mmho; where on the other hand you can find numbers better than the 8 mmho reported. So that is the explanation as to why all the AM stations have a notch towards Hattiesburg.

w/

 

[DeadElvis]

> a couple pieces of #10 copper wire...

Wow. That's what I make dipoles out of. And, I only run a few hundred Watts into them.

DE

 

[stereolane]

Anyone know the asking price for WIIN? Any real estate included?

 

[jboyd]

Before you ask the price, determine what you can pay, and save a lot of time for all involved.
Friendly advice from the back fence. JBI

 

[stereolane]

Before you ask the price, determine what you can pay, and save a lot of time for all involved.
Friendly advice from the back fence. JBI

If that's a negotiating tactic, then it's no wonder that this station remains off the air. This is a buyer's market that is in disarray like never before. See you next year when it's time once again to re-set the silent clock. :

 

[jboyd]

This is NOT a Tactic...this is reality! You never go into a negotiation "Without Portfolio" ...look it up.....knowing what you are capable of paying and be willing to do so. Only then can you bargain in good faith. This is why "Tire Kickers" never get the prize. Business 101. Sorry, just the facts....JBI

 

[Casual_Observer]

Hey all -

Gotta agree with JBI here - we get a call about every six weeks inquiring as to whether our station is for sale. About six or seven years ago, I would get really excited when a potential buyer came forward with a huge purchase price... but after the first few (then the next twenty) would-be buyers fell through, we don't even take those calls anymore. SO many people want to break into this business, but I've never (ever) actually met a first timer who was financially qualified to do so. You really need to be prepared to prove to the seller financially that you're able to take on the operation - even if it's just an AM daytimer. Finally, WIIN 780 AM is co-located with WYOY 101.7 FM, so I doubt there is any real estate included in the deal. Have you tried approaching them with an LMA deal?

--- Casual Observer

 

[DouglasB]

Anyone know the asking price for WIIN? Any real estate included?

How many times have we been down this road? It's a business and banks will not finance the acquisition, and sure as hell won't finance operating costs. You need cash, and lots of it. And another piece of free advice......if you're looking to acquire radio properties, a message board like this is not the place to find one. Use a qualified broker to do the leg work for you. But, again, if you are just a dreamer with no cash, the broker will probably laugh you right out the door.
We must remember, that this is a business, not an art form. You could probably make a better profit margin and be free of the FCC and other Federal regulatory headaches if you just bought a shoe store in your local town. Sure there's not ego involved, but if you want to be successful, owning a radio station is not for the faint of heart. I wish you well.