Winter Arbitron Numbers Out

[Mike Sheridan]

Well said Nick (but hey you didn't need me to tell you that). I used to enjoy listening to WCKY 1530 Cincinnati which was a very good Adult Standards station. Actually it reminded me of a '70's MOR station. They had pretty good numbers but went oldies trying to get the younger demos and they never could get the numbers they had with Standards.

Back in the '70's I worked for a very popular and profitable MOR station with a fantastic news and sports department. They always said the focus of the station was 35 to death demo. There was a lot of direct selling in those days. I'm sure lots of the sponsors bought because the station delivered but also because they loved what we were doing.

Listener and sponsor passion is largely missing today....radio? It's just there.

Here is a question I want to throw out to everyone. Live spots, it seems that if they are done right by personalities people like, seem to be more effective than the usual recorded, produced, commercial. Agree or disagree?

 

[Bob1370]

"I believe that an intelligently programmed station, with "predictable unpredictabily" and a sense of curation from the programmer(s) and air talent would still gain attention and TSL."

You've actually just described the way Jeff Kaye programmed WKBW in the 60s and early 70s, an approach Sandy Beach re-instituted when he replaced Bob Harper as PD in, IIRC, '76. I can remember being at KB in '77 and hearing Sandy talk about encouraging the jocks to have a little fun, and freshening up and expanding the oldies library with additional 1964-74 vintage songs not just because they had charted back in the day, but because they'd create something we now call the "oh, wow" factor. Any basic format lends itself to a similar approach--blend basic consistency with spontaneous personalities and a little break in the musical routine every once in a while, and you'll pull people in and keep them there. KB back in the day not only had great cumes but a stronger TSL than most CHRs, resulting in high AQH shares, precisely because while you might know generally what you were getting, you never quite knew for sure what was coming next and could easily find you were pleasantly surprised--so you stayed around so you wouldn't miss anything.

Bob Wood did the same thing within the adult contemporary realm when he took over programming WBEN in '78, with similarly good results.

It was a good philosphy then, and it's a good one now.

 

[JustPastBuffalo]

Well Nick, this is evolving into an interesting discussion, one that guys like Tom Schuh, Bob1370, Paul Warren, Bob Savage and so many others can relate to on a number of levels having worked in music and news formats for many years without aging one bit.

Cough.

It's been my observation that radio people are, by instinct and genetics, "observers" who spend a lot of time watching, sorting through all kinds of data (aka "using yesterday's intel to form tomorrow's battle plan"), listening and implementing. Occasionally they fly by the seat of their pants using past experience to shape their decisions. Making decisions on that basis is a rarity these days and it's very risky, but it happens. When it works, it's brilliant. When it doesn't, the PD wears a neon bullseye on his back.

A poster a few days ago bemoaned the fact that there's too much reminiscing on these boards recalling the WKBW-WBEN-WPHD era. The number of recent posts that deal with the "here and now and what's to become of" topics such as this thread would disprove that suggestion.

Posts about legendary programmers, on air people and what they did, are historical references. Even if some tend to recall the past, it's often due to a certain "respect for the game" in the way so many sports (especially baseball) fans view up-and-comers and quip, "that guy has respect for the game" (or the opposite, "that guy has no respect for the game.")

I doubt many of us spend a lot of time living in the past considering that we're immersed in technology, whether it's digital audio/video editing, owning mp3 players, burning CDs/DVDs, appropriating (cough) content, doing podcasts, using social networking (aka, social notworking) sites or posting here. We know that radio today is all about files. "Save it as a wav, put it in the 'T' folder, trim and label it, send it to the server and get it on the air. Now."

Still, it's not so much the technology that wins the day but the product, which is always created by (FX: Timpani) People!

One of the best posts on this board came yesterday in Nick Seneca's appraisal of programming and selling Standards. Why was it so good? Because it was about what it takes to make a format that features very old music successful in today's demanding market place. As seen through the eyes of a person who worked the format in programming and sales, it was right on the money. He "killed it."

We're all in the content provider business. This board is about content, which posters provide at no charge. I watched an interesting conversation this morning on MSNBC about content providers in the cable business. The discussion of the value of content wasn't so much eye-opening as it was re-affirming and factual. Talk radio is the immediate content business. It's free (with commercials) to turn on and off, leave and re-visit, minute-by-minute in competition with everything else that's out there.

Another thread asks where people will get their draft information. A friend got the information he needed on his smart phone. Another friend was on line. If I was in my car, I might have used radio, but there was the TV, there was ESPN, I was interested only in the first three first round choices and TV was the "platform," ESPN was the "brand" that provided the "content" that I needed. Bing, bang, boom. Done deal, Lucille. I then watched The Office, on my DVR.

As to radio today? Never been a more challenging time to program it or sell it. If you own a station, there's never been a bigger challenge to make payroll, cover costs (including debt service and taxes) and meet a respectable margin. There's also the challenge of the "exit strategy." In other words, after you've milked the cow for a number of years, to whom are you going to sell the cow? Who's going to want to buy the cow at the price you would ask in a market where people drink more pop/soda/energy drinks/water than milk?

If you're a group owner, well... it's not pretty. Seems some people/companies/groups want to be king of the world at any cost, which is where and why so many of the problems began not so long ago, which not so surprisingly motivates many of us to comment on the continuing casualty rate and collateral damage.

Which brings us to the use screen names and monikers: Posters who are in the business use them to protect their intere$ts and identitie$. Some of the board names and associated posts really are pretty good, "NeedsMoreCowbell," "SirRoxalot" - "TheBigA" and "MidnightSkullker" for example. The use of monikers is understandable. Posters walk a fine line between complimenting and alienating friends, managers and those with whom they work. The Buffalo radio community is close knit.

Events happen in our business that are published in the Buffalo News or Business First and very few people get worked up, but if the same statement, opinion or story appears on this board, it creates a firestorm. Many of the opinions, tips and inside-the-walls issues expressed by anonymous posters are based on objective reasoning and personal observation. The people who read this board are inclined to wear suits and ties as to wear Nike's and Levi's.

All this having been said, there are times when we all become snipes, rumor mongers, carnival barkers and speculators. Come to think of it, that's very much like talk radio... as well as the investment/banking sector that fuels and drives the radio business overall.

 

[Philip_Airtime]

Thanks for your courage in entering this fray, Nick. I'd like to respond to several points you made in this and other threads. First of all, I would agree that anonymous postings are maddening. Yet, having a screen name has always been a part of this board, dating to when the old www.realamherst.com hosted the local radio discussion. Some have valid reasons for posting anonymously, primarily because they otherwise wouldn't be able to speak out. Others, like me, have made no secret of our identities. But if you don't know who I am, well, that's for you to find out.

The one thing I've always believed is that at least here -- on the Buffalo-Rochester board -- the discussion is almost always civil. There are a few who are unnecessarily cruel. But for the most part, we speak our minds without name calling. I have to admit that I haven't seen any truly vile comments about you or WECK outside of an occasional cheap shot. I think it's valid to question why Dick Green (or is it Greene - I've seen it spelled both ways) made the decision to launch a talk format over adult standards.

I disagree that music is a dying format on the radio, even with a standards format. A good friend of mine can't thank me enough for letting him know about Swing 1270. He has a pretty stressful job and says the music really relaxes him when he's driving. Yes, he's 55. But he's far from checking out, so to speak. And he has the income that any potential advertiser would love. As Nick Seneca eloquently laid out here, all it takes is a committed sales force. My sister always has JOY on when I go to her house. And she represents thousands of middle-aged women in our area, I'm sure.

I once spoke to a group of high school students about radio. I was expecting them to say they never listen. But nearly every hand went up to say they do. When I asked why, one student said she wants to be surprised. She said she knows what's on her iPod, but when her favorite song comes on the radio, it's special. I kind of get that. I was listening to the Lake stream last night. I'm a diehard Springsteen fan. I can listen to him any time I want. But hearing "Spirit in the Night" play on the Lake was cool. It was followed by Hendrix's "Purple Haze," which I don't have a copy of, and I enjoyed that. You could argue the Lake is now computer stream, and you would be right. But I still consider it radio. And I will always believe that it had more of an audience than the ratings let on. (I guess I should say maybe, too, does WECK!)

Still, I believe if Dick had put the money he's now spending on talk into an adult standards format -- with personalities -- three years ago, I have no doubt he'd have a 2-and-a-half to three share right now. Granted, this is my opinion, but three years is long enough to conclude his talk format is not working. You point out in another thread that your station nailed the draft coverage. From your description, it sounds like you did. I'm sure the coverage sounded great. But who heard it? Radio listening plummets after 6pm. We all know that. I'm sure with an 8pm start time that most Bills fans -- I was among them -- followed the draft on ESPN. If I was in a car at that time, I would have gone to WGR, because that's what I do when I want sports coverage while traveling about town. So, Dick spent all this money last night, and I ask what was the return? The same argument you made about music could be made about your coverage last night. Information about the draft was widely available in so many places -- from ESPN to other radio stations and various websites -- why would someone turn to WECK? Again, I'm not arguing your coverage wasn't good. But who were you serving? Were people even aware of it? These are valid questions.

I'll be the first to proclaim "I was wrong" if the changes Dick and Brad have made at WECK result in additional listenership. For now, I remain skeptical. Are there things about WECK I enjoy? Well, for one, the Friday morning movie reviews. I despite Sandy Beach and will not listen to his Friday movie show. Plus, Lorraine and company give me all I need to know in a quick seven minutes or so. And I do enjoy listening to Brad and Jim Fink talk about what's happening in the news. So, I wish you guys (and Lorraine) luck. It's just that it's going to be a challenge for your folks!

 

[EdTheEngineer]

I STRONGLY disagree that music is a dying format for radio, even with a standards format.

I have several friends who are thrilled that I told them about Swing 1270. It is indeed "music of their life" and it comforts them and relaxes him, both around the house and when they are in the car driving somewhere. They're all in the 60 to 80 age range but they have plenty of cash so that is income that potential advertisers LOVE!

The thing is this: while that amazing technology that the Internet and IPods and cell phone Apps provide is very convenient and useful, not everyone has access to it. Think about the Internet - while probably EVERYONE on this board who posts or reads messages has Internet access at home, not everyone ELSE does. Don't believe me? Walk into any public library in WNY, or across the country for that matter. The computer terminals are all filled up and people are on the waiting list to get on there. Why? Because they don't have Internet access at home and still want to be online and check e-mail, do research, etc.

An adult standards format built around a decent morning show and probably another two or three personalities would get WECK right around a 3 share in today's market. It's something that can work and will work if given the opportunity. That's why Swing 1270 AM will succeed and show progress in the next book and well beyond, while WECK will struggle to get to the 1.0 mark. Nothing against Dick Greene, Brad Riter and the WECK crew (including Nick), but that's the way the cookie is likely going to crumble.

I also remain skeptic but wish WECK and their new approach all the best.

 

[GeorgeKramer]

That is why Swing 1270 is doing well. It's the type of station you flip on after you get your morning news from WBEN or WECK or NPR or elsewhere and then leave it on all day as you do housework or putter around in the yard/garage.

I'm also telling my friends about Swing. Most of them have gotten back to me to say thanks for letting them know it exists.

WECK is trying. I saw a very small ad in the Buffalo News earlier this week in the sports section promoting the Yankees.

 

[topsound]

Been fighting this battle since 1989, when WHTT flipped to Oldies.

A format based on the "60 to 80 age range" just cannot succeed as a stand-alone. It can be a flanker or a low-cost option for a low-priority station in a cluster (i.e WHLD), but that's about it. Much as I would have liked WECK to have been a music station (in my wheelhouse) there just wasn't enough upside.

Despite the perception of disposable income among empty-nesters, its just as likely that persons in this demographic are on tightly-fixed incomes. Agencies and marketing-savvy businesses know that. They put dollars where they'll get a return from younger demographics who are making more frequent active-buying choices.

I like the ideas posted here about mature-based formats focusing on local-direct business, but that should be the case for any station in any format. But you also have to have some agency business to succeed, and 25-54 still rules with media buyers. The average age of the radio-listening audience in WNY might be HIGHER than 54, but 25-54 still rules.

 

[Nick Mendola]

I enjoyed reading a lot of this, especially Jim's post. I have a terrific amount of respect for the folks -- in particular Jim & Tom, not to high-five you -- who've been doing this for years and I believe that true wisdom is the font from which I'd like to drink.

I want people to know I LOVE music. I was in a touring band for six years and own more CDs, vinyl and more than I probably should given that I work in radio which pays so terribly well.

Some random response points:

1) I can understand the desire for a standards station because I have that desire, but Dick's idea of local "everything" talk is a good one. I can't tell you how popular talk radio is with my peers. Even moreso, one of the things that is changing the most is using calls as justification. I met with a rather large client the other day and he wanted to know where I get the most listener feedback from, and he asked about Twitter responses in show and Facebook responses in show before getting to calls. I'm totally okay with calls, but I find the majority of my calls come from people at work and "older" folks (non-25-54) unless I'm giving something away. Then everyone comes out! I probably get somewhere around 30 Tweets about what I'm talking about, minimum, per hour of non-guest content. One of the things I've had to focus on as a host is not paying attention to them until commercial breaks!

2) I realize the battle that lies with Arbitron but I've had a hard trouble buying into what they do since I was told (while still at WGR) about the massive buy-in for companies to receive full support. Do I believe we've been a .5? Sure. Do I believe that's representative? Nope. They need to find a way to monitor a wider swath of listeners. Honestly, if I got a radio book, which I know of three people who've ever got one, and wasn't in radio, would I pay painstaking attention or even care to fill it in? I can't say yes or no, but the main point is I'm sure there are at least 100 threads on this board at whether ratings matter. I can tell you they do to clients, and that's the only reason we care about them. ONLY. We know we're improving and going in the right direction (again, for a talk station). In a world where even major corporations are using their TV commercials to say "find us on Twitter and Facebook" and Brad or myself have 1000-2000 more Twitter followers than Kiss, it shows that talk radio is really about the people behind the opinions, even if it makes me blush a little.

3) The Nick Seneca post was great, and I even brought it to Brad's attention. He told me to read it through again with what our philosophy (Brad and mine) at WECK is... and we're doing all that stuff. I can't imagine a new talk station (which we are) could make a huge dent in one or two significant books. There are far too many variables to guarantee success, but I believe we're moving in a terrific direction.

4) As for WYRK and WGRF, I believe it's super simple. WYRK gets great ratings because country listeners are a faithful and passionate group and they are the only place to get it (I wish there was an old country station: Cash, Haggard, Waylon... my loves!). As for WGRF, they are going to kill it moving forward. Do we really believe people who loved b-sides and deep cuts would rather hear talk than rock? Nope. The move may work for WBEN's desires, but it's going to make 97 Rock as strong as ever. I bet they needed new pants with the announcement.

5) Look, I own a small business. I get how it works as the underdog, but I also know the joy of connecting with those people passionate about your cause. Brad just dented the "Best Radio host" category in the Best of Buffalo in Artvoice. Sadly, he took out Bert Gambini and the other four noms remain the same: Shredd & Ragan (Very good show, but really, they get to count as two!?!?), Janet Snyder, Beach & Bauerle. That's a significant note, and the "independent" message is connecting with some of Buffalo. We have to be better with our programming and get support, but I do believe in the idea.

Thanks for the conversation, guys and girls. Genuinely, I don't get angry about shots at our personalities or the perception of our programming, but there have been a lot of things written here that were blatantly false about the way things go on inside our building. I realize this is a radio message board, but false things (whether malicious or accidental) are a sad sign of immaturity far worse than an "uh" or an "um."

Cheers,
Nick
[email protected]

 

[Bob1370]

Jim Pastrick says, "...this is evolving into an interesting discussion, one that guys like Tom Schuh, Bob1370, Paul Warren, Bob Savage and so many others can relate to on a number of levels having worked in music and news formats for many years without aging one bit."

We wish. At least the part about not aging one bit.

Actually, though, there is a lot to be learned from successful strategies that have worked in the past, because they're based on logic that may still work right now. I'm noticing that the kinds of things Jeff Kaye and Sandy beach did to program KB, are (in an updated form) some of the same strategies working well for music stations today in markets as big as New York (and they don't come any bigger, at least in the USA). A blend of continuity with a little occasional surprise might be a good way to program a talk station too...

 

[Mike Sheridan]

Lots of good comments here. Now if only you guys were in radio management, I know some used to be. Get back in there and show them how it's done.

In this economy few are willing to risk programming by their gut instead of research. People don't always know why they like something though, lets face it most of us are unpredictable.

Bob, you brought up KB as many of us do here. I remember everybody listened to KB, not just the kids. Maybe the parents in Blasdell were just hipper cats who knew WKBW was the 'in' station....nah. Their music at times could be very MOR. Al Martino, Sinatra, Matt Monro and Sammy Davis Jr next to the Beatles! I have airchecks of KB from 1964 to prove it.

Predictable unpredictability, is the key. Bill Tanner at Y-100 claimed his station was, but KB really was better at it, even before Jeff Kaye got there.

How about Standards on FM? 107.7 maybe? I know it won't happen but it would be interesting. Maybe just on the weekends... With a live personality. When I worked at my first station that was 35+ focused, the listeners really liked having a live person at night on the radio for companionship. Most were alone and woke up in the middle of the night unable to go to sleep.

I'd like to know who came up with the rule that 50+ can't be swayed by advertising. We still need to hear about new services, new places to eat, and shop. We're not all concerned about our colin or cemetery plots. As Jeff Kaye said once sometimes you can break the rules, and then ask "Who makes the rules"?

 

[Nick Mendola]

How about Standards on FM? 107.7 maybe? I know it won't happen but it would be interesting. Maybe just on the weekends... With a live personality. When I worked at my first station that was 35+ focused, the listeners really liked having a live person at night on the radio for companionship. Most were alone and woke up in the middle of the night unable to go to sleep.

Just on the weekends is super interesting. "We treat the weekends... like weekends. W___."

 

[GeorgeKramer]

How about music on WECK Saturdays from noon on and Sundays for a portion of the day?

 

[Radknowski]

Doesn't Wonderful WECK feature a Polka Show on weekends?

 

[jas2525]

Doesn't Wonderful WECK feature a Polka Show on weekends?

Looking at the latest numbers, what is realistically the best case scenario for WECK? I hear some of the hosts really trying to put on a show, but who's hearing it and who is possibly going to find it in this day and age? It's not like most people are trolling the AM band looking for soemthing new. They're just not. With all the technological advances and added audio competition, it's hard enough for an FM to make that work these days. But an AM?

Seems like the deck is stacked mightily against them, almost to the point of guaranteed failure. Am I wrong?

 

[Bob1370]

Don't know what kind of marketing budget they have, but a little advertising in other media may help. Maybe a billboard in a high traffic area along the 190 or 290, or maybe a little social networking or viral marketing may help.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

Don't know what kind of marketing budget they have, but a little advertising in other media may help. Maybe a billboard in a high traffic area along the 190 or 290, or maybe a little social networking or viral marketing may help.

Do billboards really work? A station I worked for had billboards all over town yet few people noticed them. The billboards that I remember getting noticed were the ones that had some sort of controversy connected to them.

 

[jas2525]

Look at it this way:

If KB, with an incredible signal AND heritage tried to do what WECK is doing, I believe in this day and age, given it's an AM station that nobody is searching for, they would be unsuccessful.

 

[cee]

Look at it this way:

If KB, with an incredible signal AND heritage tried to do what WECK is doing, I believe in this day and age, given it's an AM station that nobody is searching for, they would be unsuccessful.

Agreed. I give the WECK staff credit for giving it the "old college try" - but AM belongs to yesterday.

 

[BJC]

And FM may be right behind.

 

[Nick Gerard]

jas 2525 wrote:

Looking at the latest numbers, what is realistically the best case scenario for WECK?

Just a thought from afar:

For as long as I can remember - even going back to WNIA - 1230 has always tried to be a "metro Buffalo" station. 

For most of 1230's life, this has been a reasonable thing to do - especially in WECK's "Music of Your Life" days when it was, IIRC, the only station in Buffalo playing that music.

For years however, Buffalo COL powerhouses like WBEN have already been talking about national issues and Buffalo issues. In today's media marketplace, why should a rimshot graveyarder even try to compete?

If WECK is to continue as a talk station, I believe the best opportunity is to morph into a true Cheektowaga-Amherst- Depew-Lancaster station.  Not living there I don't know what the issues are, but examples might be potholes on Geroge Urban Blvd, sinking houses in Amherst or security in the Galleria parking lot.  Engage hosts who are suburban residents to talk about suburban issues. Leave "Buffalo talk" to the Buffalo COL stations.  Make "Hometown Radio" mean something. Leave national political debate to WBEN or NPR.

Again - my disclaimer - I don't live there and have not listened, and perhaps 'ECK is doing this to some degree.  But a full commitment to the eastern suburbs combined with a local direct sales focus on these communities could make this station "Arbitron-proof" and not have its viability affected by where the diaries happen to fall.

Nick Seneca