Have to agree with Rene', as CKLW's night pattern has a lobe aimed almost directly at this area. Small wonder that WTMR's night signal has Windsor breathing down its throat. This was one of the reasons I asked about WWDB; if its pattern could be loosened somewhat now that WEEU is on 830, and a night CP from 1988 brought back to life, that may be an idea.
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WKDN Changing From Non-Comm Back to Commercial?
- Thread starter DG02816
- Start date
I recall in the 70's before WTMR had night service that all I could pick up on 800 at night in Lower Merion was
500 kW PJB Bonaire Netherlands creaming CKLW.
500 kW PJB Bonaire Netherlands creaming CKLW.
rtetro said:
Rene', double digits begin at 10, which would be very nice if it were so. But I have a feeling that CKLW's 50% skywave is at least 2.5 mV/m in Philadelphia. That would make WTMR's NIF 50 mV/m. Such values are not unprecedented by any means. Can you believe that the powered-down WOWO, which is nulled toward New York City to protect WLIB, limits stations on 1190 not far from Philly to the high 20s? It's so. Now compare CKLW's ID field toward Philly with WOWO's. The distances from Philly are comparable, so you can probably make a pretty good educated guess at WTMR's NIF.
I don't understand why WWDB hasn't applied to use the WPEN day site at night for a low-power operation on 860. I suspect that 'DB could run 249W at night from WPEN's day site (and towers), remain a Class D, and provide some useful coverage of Philadelphia. CJBC's night signal in Philly is not likely to be as strong as CKLW's.
C
ccuphl
Guest
Re: WKDN Signal
Figure it this way: WPEN-FM's signal in/near Roxborough is noticeably directional to protect 97.3 WRBT/Harrisburg. 106.7/Hershey is closer to Philadelphia (it looks like their stick is in far western Lancaster County) than WRBT, so a 106.9 in Roxborough is gonna have a pretty good chunk of signal missing to the west (unless some 1960s-era rules come into play - I don't know when WKDN went on the air).
KSB said:
Figure it this way: WPEN-FM's signal in/near Roxborough is noticeably directional to protect 97.3 WRBT/Harrisburg. 106.7/Hershey is closer to Philadelphia (it looks like their stick is in far western Lancaster County) than WRBT, so a 106.9 in Roxborough is gonna have a pretty good chunk of signal missing to the west (unless some 1960s-era rules come into play - I don't know when WKDN went on the air).
Re: WKDN Signal
Although some current references give their airdate as 1966, there are Broadcasting Yearbooks from before '66 that list the station as being on the air with an airdate of 12/31/1959. I tend to believe the earlier date--I had grandparents who lived not far from the WKDN studio building (now WTMR's) and I can remember it saying WKDN AM FM on the front when I was fairly little, before '66.
ccuphl said:
Although some current references give their airdate as 1966, there are Broadcasting Yearbooks from before '66 that list the station as being on the air with an airdate of 12/31/1959. I tend to believe the earlier date--I had grandparents who lived not far from the WKDN studio building (now WTMR's) and I can remember it saying WKDN AM FM on the front when I was fairly little, before '66.
Dan,
CJBC is rather strong here in the Philly area. It's diplexed into CFZM's tower, which is 183 deg. high at 740. At 860, the tower appears to be 202.9 deg., or just over 5/8 wave. WWDB could get decent night power from the WPEN day site, it seems.
Sam, PJB was also a regular visitor nightly in Rhode Island. Reading some tech. info about it indicates that then, only one tower in a 4-tower DA was driven; the rest were parasitics.
CJBC is rather strong here in the Philly area. It's diplexed into CFZM's tower, which is 183 deg. high at 740. At 860, the tower appears to be 202.9 deg., or just over 5/8 wave. WWDB could get decent night power from the WPEN day site, it seems.
Sam, PJB was also a regular visitor nightly in Rhode Island. Reading some tech. info about it indicates that then, only one tower in a 4-tower DA was driven; the rest were parasitics.
Go to my Website for WTMR Web Radio and click on Pictures and scroll down to the bottom I have a Photo of the The WTMR Building when it was WKDN.
http://www.wtmrwebradio.com/
WKDN FM was sold to Family Radio for $750,000.00 in 1968 My Dad Purchased WKDN AM for $500,000.00 in 1968 and changed the call letters to WTMR.
WKDN FM started Broadcasting in Stereo in 1978 when we put up the current Tower that WKDN uses.
Tommy Roberts JR
WTMR Web Radio
http://www.wtmrwebradio.com/
WKDN FM was sold to Family Radio for $750,000.00 in 1968 My Dad Purchased WKDN AM for $500,000.00 in 1968 and changed the call letters to WTMR.
WKDN FM started Broadcasting in Stereo in 1978 when we put up the current Tower that WKDN uses.
Tommy Roberts JR
WTMR Web Radio
DG02816 said:
Hi, Dave: You mean just over 5/9 wavelength. 5/8 = 225 degrees; 5/9 = 200 degrees. 202.9 is pretty close to what I guess is considered the optimal height--195 degrees. After they gave up on the frequency-selective top loading at WFAN/WCBS, WCBS is 207 degrees. The old WKOX before it moved to Newton and became WXKS (AM) used to be 214 degrees using better-than-half-wave towers that were also top loaded. I live about 15 miles from the site, pretty much right in front of the old night pattern. Plenty of QRM from CFGO, WTLA, WAGE, and others (even WOAI--on paper), but I never heard an instance of skywave/groundwave phasing.
C
CosmicRock
Guest
I somewhat expect Townsquare Media to purchase this, they have their foot dipped in the water with WSJO (104.9) and it being on the Philadelphia Marlet and Radio One may be selling stations, so the broadcast company attempting to purchase stations in the Philadelphia market may buy one from Radio One, because Radio One does need the money, and doesn't need to keep 103.9, I can see them hanging onto 107.9 and 100.3, but I can't see them hanging onto 103.9 if they need the funds.
The real question -
Are they any signals that can be put into service, or upgraded to Class B?
94.3 isn't a signal for anywhere close to Philadelphia, there's a strong chance it can be a signal in Wilmington, that way it won't interfere with WIP.
107.7 is also a free signal in Philadelphia.
Radio One may sell 103.9 or 107.9, due to such low ratings. They're just not working in the market. 97.5 may be sold, they are the lowest rated FM Station that broadcasts out of philadelphia owned by a corporation.
105.5 is also not a signal anywhere close enough to philadelphia, in which case, there is three or four station signals which would not be damaging to add to the Philadelphia market. Let's face it, radio is getting more popular, Philadelphia is growing. The city is cleaning up, and the economy is not failing in Philadelphia. Companys are going to want that money.
Now, for formats? Hot AC. It is clear WIOQ is a failing station, WPST has 2.2 in the market, which is impressive when it won't even reach center city. WSTW also is somewhat large on the charts, and WSJO. WIOQ is a failing Hot AC, in my honest opinoun. I listen to WISX mainly if I want to hear something Top 40-ish. I usually have my dial on WBEN or WMMR, and WSJO in the morning.
Maybe they should buy Radio One's stations if they really want into this market, because at this point, nothing else seems plausible at all.
With demands on the overall market, it's only a matter of time untill 108.1 MHz, 108.3 MHz, 108.5 MHz, 108.7 MHz, 108.9 MHz are allowed on the dial. It's already allowed in other countries, why not here?
The real question -
Are they any signals that can be put into service, or upgraded to Class B?
94.3 isn't a signal for anywhere close to Philadelphia, there's a strong chance it can be a signal in Wilmington, that way it won't interfere with WIP.
107.7 is also a free signal in Philadelphia.
Radio One may sell 103.9 or 107.9, due to such low ratings. They're just not working in the market. 97.5 may be sold, they are the lowest rated FM Station that broadcasts out of philadelphia owned by a corporation.
105.5 is also not a signal anywhere close enough to philadelphia, in which case, there is three or four station signals which would not be damaging to add to the Philadelphia market. Let's face it, radio is getting more popular, Philadelphia is growing. The city is cleaning up, and the economy is not failing in Philadelphia. Companys are going to want that money.
Now, for formats? Hot AC. It is clear WIOQ is a failing station, WPST has 2.2 in the market, which is impressive when it won't even reach center city. WSTW also is somewhat large on the charts, and WSJO. WIOQ is a failing Hot AC, in my honest opinoun. I listen to WISX mainly if I want to hear something Top 40-ish. I usually have my dial on WBEN or WMMR, and WSJO in the morning.
Maybe they should buy Radio One's stations if they really want into this market, because at this point, nothing else seems plausible at all.
With demands on the overall market, it's only a matter of time untill 108.1 MHz, 108.3 MHz, 108.5 MHz, 108.7 MHz, 108.9 MHz are allowed on the dial. It's already allowed in other countries, why not here?
I'll let the others debate formats with you cos, but let me school you on law and physics. You can't put stations on the air on vacant frequencies just because they're dormant! They're vacant for a reason. 107.7 was licensed to Bridgeton, NJ as a Class B1 25,000 (+/-) watts. It was sold to the current owners who petitioned to move it to 'Pennsauken" as a Class A at 107.9. It needs 107.7 vacant for spacing to 107.5 (a Class B flamethrower) in Boyertown. See, it's like a jigsaw. There's mileage and spacing requirements to prevent interference. There's already a 105.5 on the air at the shore. Need 80 miles seperation.
94.3 cannot go anywhere near Philly. The mileage seperation between a Class B (WIP) and a Class A (94.3) is now approx 70 miles. The nearest are the ones at the shore: 94.4, 98.3, 102.3, 102.7(docket 80-90) and CP for 106.3. Exceptions are LPFMs at 50-100 watts and translators, some as low as 10 watts. Head spinning yet? AM is even more complicated.
All the rules and regs are available online at www.fcc.gov , and while you're there, look up silent stations in the audio service. You can also find out why some of those stations have smaller ratings...smaller signals! See them at www.radio-locator.com , just type in their call letters, or type in Philadelphia, and it will give you the list. Get a more detailed list by including "fringe" stations at the bottom of the page. Then you'll see why you need mileage seperation.
In closing...108+ mHz is VERY BUSY. Go to any flea market and pick up an old transistor radio with a VHF Public Service Aircraft Band! That's the frequency band used by Commercial Aircraft.
94.3 cannot go anywhere near Philly. The mileage seperation between a Class B (WIP) and a Class A (94.3) is now approx 70 miles. The nearest are the ones at the shore: 94.4, 98.3, 102.3, 102.7(docket 80-90) and CP for 106.3. Exceptions are LPFMs at 50-100 watts and translators, some as low as 10 watts. Head spinning yet? AM is even more complicated.
All the rules and regs are available online at www.fcc.gov , and while you're there, look up silent stations in the audio service. You can also find out why some of those stations have smaller ratings...smaller signals! See them at www.radio-locator.com , just type in their call letters, or type in Philadelphia, and it will give you the list. Get a more detailed list by including "fringe" stations at the bottom of the page. Then you'll see why you need mileage seperation.
In closing...108+ mHz is VERY BUSY. Go to any flea market and pick up an old transistor radio with a VHF Public Service Aircraft Band! That's the frequency band used by Commercial Aircraft.
C
CosmicRock
Guest
Alright, that makes alot of sense.
How about 105.5?
How about 105.5?
Pab Sungenis said:
We're talking about frequencies that could be used *in* Philadelphia?
105.5 is out of the question due to WDAS. Any new station on 105.5 must be at least 60 miles from WDAS. (as Pab suggests, there may be other reasons why 105.5 is not usable)
Indeed, there are NO frequencies available for new stations in Philadelphia.
Even allowing for short-spacing, any new station would need to be at least 60 miles from the transmitter of any Class B station on an adjoining channel. (For example, any station on 105.1 or 105.5 must be at least 60 miles from the WDAS transmitter) It must be at least 42 miles from the transmitter of any Class B station on a channel separated by 0.4 or 0.6MHz. (any station on 104.7, 104.9, 105.7, or 105.9 must be at least 42 miles from the WDAS transmitter) The 18 Philadelphia commercial stations and their adjacent channels tie up every commercial FM channel except 94.9. The problem with 94.9 is two stations on 95.1 outside the Philadelphia market -- Philadelphia is 46 miles from WZZO Bethlehem and 55 miles from WAYV Atlantic City. Again, 60 miles is required.
Now, you can throw this all out the window if you can afford to pay off some other station to reduce power or move. If you could pay off WZZO and WAYV to reduce power to Class A, only 30 miles of separation would be required, and you might be able to squeeze in a 6,000-watt Class A station on 94.9 in Philadelphia. Except you might run afoul of 94.5 in Trenton & have to pay them off too. Am I missing some other station that would preclude that move? Probably...
_________________________________________________
(yes, 97.5 and 103.9 are in violation of these separation standards. Both stations existed before the current FM rules were established in 1964. They're allowed to continue to use their non-compliant facilities and even upgrade them. If you can roll back the clock to 1963 you might be able to use other non-compliant channels like 99.7.)
w9wi: Does it matter if the signal is directional or not, like with AM? When a 105.7 (now WQSH) moved from Glens Falls to Albany, it had to change from nondirectional to directional to protect a 105.5 (WSKU) and 105.7 (WMRV-FM) to the west and a 105.5 (WVEI-FM) to the east 
Under the current rules, you still have to demonstrate that a fully-spaced location exists at which you could theoretically build the station as a non-directional facility while meeting all the spacing rules and providing the required coverage of your city of license.
You don't actually have to build the station at that site - you can move to a location that would otherwise be short-spaced and use a directional array or terrain blockage to demonstrate that you're protecting other stations' signals - but the need to show that theoretical "allocation site" significantly limits just how short-spaced you can go. (There are other limitations, too; there's a mileage table that restricts the extent to which you can short-space, and you're only allowed a certain amount of directionality.)
Shorter answer: without spending a prohibitive amount of money to buy and move a bunch of existing stations, the FM dial in Philadelphia is packed absolutely as full as it can go. If there were usable holes, they'd have been filled a long time ago.
You don't actually have to build the station at that site - you can move to a location that would otherwise be short-spaced and use a directional array or terrain blockage to demonstrate that you're protecting other stations' signals - but the need to show that theoretical "allocation site" significantly limits just how short-spaced you can go. (There are other limitations, too; there's a mileage table that restricts the extent to which you can short-space, and you're only allowed a certain amount of directionality.)
Shorter answer: without spending a prohibitive amount of money to buy and move a bunch of existing stations, the FM dial in Philadelphia is packed absolutely as full as it can go. If there were usable holes, they'd have been filled a long time ago.
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