Still, is 910 plus an improved translator worth anywhere near $1.5 million?
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WPFB & WPAY Sold To WNKU
- Thread starter microbob
- Start date
Nothing against the guy whatsoever, but it seems like "The Campy Curse" is in full effect. The last three stations he's worked at have all flipped or been sold...First WING-FM, then Z-93, and now The Rebel. I'd be scared for the future of my station if I saw him suddenly walking around the hallways of my station. 
Bizman said:
There are a lot of variables, here, Biz.
Different formats have different costs in executing them properly.
Collections are a more important part of the equation. Its what gets to the bank that counts.
EBITDA..... forget it. We're not talking about Cabletown here.
Start with this: Just to service the debt will cost you $14,400.00 per month. Provided you can get a loan for 1.3 million at 6%. No one is going to loan you 100% on a standalone unless you have a good amount of assets pledged.
Next question: are the sites owned or leased?
Property taxes?
So, you can bet, before you even turn the thing on, you've got fixed expenses of almost 20 grand per month.
We never even addressed Payroll, insurance (liability, etc.), royalties and the like.
Tough deal, eh?
Thanks for the information jry.
So what do you figure a 30 second spot would go for on WPFB-AM? I wonder how much advertising time would have to be sold daily to just cover fixed expenses? Would you even be able to sell enough time to cover fixed and variable costs? You figured the loan at 10 years, would 20 years be possible or is that just crazy?
So what do you figure a 30 second spot would go for on WPFB-AM? I wonder how much advertising time would have to be sold daily to just cover fixed expenses? Would you even be able to sell enough time to cover fixed and variable costs? You figured the loan at 10 years, would 20 years be possible or is that just crazy?
Back when i started out, it was fairly easy to get a 15 year amortization, with a 5 year "look". Meaning, the banks would price the loan as a 15 year but at 5, it would renegotiate. The loan was calculated at the going rate for the 15 years but reset at 5. Provided, you did well with the first 5 years, you might get a break.
I have not seen any loans going out for 20 years. Heck, today, 15 is a stretch. If you have other properties to aggregate against the loan, you'll have a better time. The big thing is having lots of equity or cash to pledge against the loan.
Even then, the banks are tough. They do not want any more properties in their "workout" or repo division.
One thing i am hearing is that they'd rather have a cashflowing entity than something like an apartment complex.
I had to do a bunch of broadcast appraisals for Comerica Bank and found that they are still high on radio.
They still require a pretty stiff downstroke, though. I think it was 25%. Then they want to see a resume that is fat on successful radio management. I think that this loan was near 5 million for a group of stations. The stations were worth north of 6.
I have not seen any loans going out for 20 years. Heck, today, 15 is a stretch. If you have other properties to aggregate against the loan, you'll have a better time. The big thing is having lots of equity or cash to pledge against the loan.
Even then, the banks are tough. They do not want any more properties in their "workout" or repo division.
One thing i am hearing is that they'd rather have a cashflowing entity than something like an apartment complex.
I had to do a bunch of broadcast appraisals for Comerica Bank and found that they are still high on radio.
They still require a pretty stiff downstroke, though. I think it was 25%. Then they want to see a resume that is fat on successful radio management. I think that this loan was near 5 million for a group of stations. The stations were worth north of 6.
jry has done an excellent job of breaking down the cost. A stand alone AM is a tough one to go these days. You have to provide as much local programming as you can and supplement it with network programming.
WPFB can make money but it has to be done with a staff no larger than five and experienced sales people who understand how to sell AM radio and the local high school games.
It is possible in that market to make $225,000 to $300,000 off local play by play, local sports programming and local news elements. But no one can make it with an asking price of $1.5 mill. It is another indication on non commercial operators don't understand commercial radio.
WPFB can make money but it has to be done with a staff no larger than five and experienced sales people who understand how to sell AM radio and the local high school games.
It is possible in that market to make $225,000 to $300,000 off local play by play, local sports programming and local news elements. But no one can make it with an asking price of $1.5 mill. It is another indication on non commercial operators don't understand commercial radio.
And thank you to everyone who has posted here...I think you're showing people who are on these boards the honest truth about the financial side of radio and, in these most recent posts, why the challenges of making an AM station work in markets this size is so tough...
Let's face it: Though I agree with the notion that a "local" station could succeed in a "local" market by being "hyper local", you still have to consider the community in which you're talking.
Middletown still does have some "local" businesses. But are they enough in number to keep you afloat, or turn a profit? As the migration of Cincinnati northward has progressed (and even a bit of Dayton southward), many businesses in the areas of Warren and Butler counties are franchise operations who all use ad agencies to place their ad campaigns. And, many of your car dealers around these parts use in house or regional agencies. Saying to these clients, "Buy us because we're the local station", ain't enough to cut it. You have to back it up with ratings numbers.
So that means, at the very least, you're going to need to buy the county breakouts from Arbitron and show some people 25-54 are listening to you. And...not too top heavy 50 plus. Lately, WPFB-AM has been airing classic country which tends to attract mostly men over age 55...not too demographically compatible. (It's "oldies" syndrome with twang..)
OK, so let's assume, hypothetically, you're going to play a Classic Hits (think a 60's,70's pop format with a few 80's thrown in for spice) format, but lean on your news and information commitment. But then you're looking at hiring an experienced News Director, and at least one full time and, perhaps a part-time reporter/anchor. (That's about what WKFI-AM had in Wilmington back in the 1970's.). That might work if...you hire no DJ's. That's right. No DJ's...simply a Program Director to do a morning show who is also the Production Director. Maybe you have a part-time person do dubs in the afternoon once you're up and rolling.
Now, we're at 3 full time and at least a couple part-timers. Add 2 or 3 salespeople, an Office Manager who does the logs and billing, a GM who probably also has to sell. Plus upkeep, utilities, music licensing fees, etc. Suddenly, that $14 thousand a month debt service looks pretty huge. And, no...sorry...local high school sports by and of itself won't crack the nut you need to be profitable. (Though I agree it would have to be part of your equation regardless of format.)
OK, how about a talk format? I think WPFB-AM tried that. The problem is: with so many stations in the area (think WHIO, WLW, and WKRC) airing what is called the "top tier" of talk, you're going to be relegated to the second tier talkers or less. Their ratings success is marginal when you have the big talkers available in your market.
Middletown is simply no longer an "oasis" of its' own as it once was. It's now a bedroom community to either of the two cities nearby you'd care to assign it to. So anything you do would have to stand out..and that means a professional staff at professional salaries...professionally done and imaged.
And remember, few under 50 listen to AM radio. Which makes it all dicier.
Perhaps if some philanthropist who believed in local radio with the capital to try it and spend enough to make it work for three to five years (losing money for at least 2 or 3 of those years)...maybe. (But, that's a big maybe.) But, it's an iffy proposition at best.
And 1.5 million to buy the station? Keep dreaming, NKU...
Let's face it: Though I agree with the notion that a "local" station could succeed in a "local" market by being "hyper local", you still have to consider the community in which you're talking.
Middletown still does have some "local" businesses. But are they enough in number to keep you afloat, or turn a profit? As the migration of Cincinnati northward has progressed (and even a bit of Dayton southward), many businesses in the areas of Warren and Butler counties are franchise operations who all use ad agencies to place their ad campaigns. And, many of your car dealers around these parts use in house or regional agencies. Saying to these clients, "Buy us because we're the local station", ain't enough to cut it. You have to back it up with ratings numbers.
So that means, at the very least, you're going to need to buy the county breakouts from Arbitron and show some people 25-54 are listening to you. And...not too top heavy 50 plus. Lately, WPFB-AM has been airing classic country which tends to attract mostly men over age 55...not too demographically compatible. (It's "oldies" syndrome with twang..)
OK, so let's assume, hypothetically, you're going to play a Classic Hits (think a 60's,70's pop format with a few 80's thrown in for spice) format, but lean on your news and information commitment. But then you're looking at hiring an experienced News Director, and at least one full time and, perhaps a part-time reporter/anchor. (That's about what WKFI-AM had in Wilmington back in the 1970's.). That might work if...you hire no DJ's. That's right. No DJ's...simply a Program Director to do a morning show who is also the Production Director. Maybe you have a part-time person do dubs in the afternoon once you're up and rolling.
Now, we're at 3 full time and at least a couple part-timers. Add 2 or 3 salespeople, an Office Manager who does the logs and billing, a GM who probably also has to sell. Plus upkeep, utilities, music licensing fees, etc. Suddenly, that $14 thousand a month debt service looks pretty huge. And, no...sorry...local high school sports by and of itself won't crack the nut you need to be profitable. (Though I agree it would have to be part of your equation regardless of format.)
OK, how about a talk format? I think WPFB-AM tried that. The problem is: with so many stations in the area (think WHIO, WLW, and WKRC) airing what is called the "top tier" of talk, you're going to be relegated to the second tier talkers or less. Their ratings success is marginal when you have the big talkers available in your market.
Middletown is simply no longer an "oasis" of its' own as it once was. It's now a bedroom community to either of the two cities nearby you'd care to assign it to. So anything you do would have to stand out..and that means a professional staff at professional salaries...professionally done and imaged.
And remember, few under 50 listen to AM radio. Which makes it all dicier.
Perhaps if some philanthropist who believed in local radio with the capital to try it and spend enough to make it work for three to five years (losing money for at least 2 or 3 of those years)...maybe. (But, that's a big maybe.) But, it's an iffy proposition at best.
And 1.5 million to buy the station? Keep dreaming, NKU...
It might be noted that in the 1950's, 60's and into the 70's, WPFB had quite a bit of pre-recorded religious programming on the air - even during weekday afternoons (from Kash Amburgy to Brother Al). While such shows may have caused some to tune the dial away from 910, they also apparently brought in money to the station. When the WPFB attempted other formats, those shows - and the capital they were said to have brought in - were gone. I wonder how that made a difference in the former -vs- the more current financial picture?
KevinFoder did an excellent job of laying everything out so well. One of the few changes from his piece is to have the P.D. to cover one shift along with promotions and community involvement and an afternoon D.J. to handle the shift and serve as Production Director. I would go with only one in news to hande the shift for morning drive and up to 1p.m. They can record the afternoon drive news and if there is breaking news they can be called in to cover it.
I have had real sucess in training air talent to also be another sales person. You may luck out and have the GM be able to not ony sell but pull some air work too.
I agree that the Classic Country format is too much of an older format and leans towards male too much. There are formats that can appeal to 40 plus for both female and male.
KevinFoder is right the ad agencies hate AM. They are, for the most part, younger their your targeted demo and since they don't listen to AM -they don't buy it.
AM radio can be sccessful on direct selling. You have to find the right person who can sell direct. There have been times I have been asked to teach sellers how to sell direct.
The Small Business people don't care about ratings and don't believe them anyway. They believe in results of bringing to them customers. I have seen car dealers spend upwards to $4,000 a month with my station because we produced results. I have had car dealers sign $33,000 a year contract on the spot.
WPFB can be a success if the folks at NKU take hold of what the real market is and sell it for $500,000. If they don't ,I will be surprised if they don't have to sit on it for a very long time for their asking price.
I have had real sucess in training air talent to also be another sales person. You may luck out and have the GM be able to not ony sell but pull some air work too.
I agree that the Classic Country format is too much of an older format and leans towards male too much. There are formats that can appeal to 40 plus for both female and male.
KevinFoder is right the ad agencies hate AM. They are, for the most part, younger their your targeted demo and since they don't listen to AM -they don't buy it.
AM radio can be sccessful on direct selling. You have to find the right person who can sell direct. There have been times I have been asked to teach sellers how to sell direct.
The Small Business people don't care about ratings and don't believe them anyway. They believe in results of bringing to them customers. I have seen car dealers spend upwards to $4,000 a month with my station because we produced results. I have had car dealers sign $33,000 a year contract on the spot.
WPFB can be a success if the folks at NKU take hold of what the real market is and sell it for $500,000. If they don't ,I will be surprised if they don't have to sit on it for a very long time for their asking price.
I am RF engineer for WNKU and have been in the 'thick' of the WPFB/WPAY sale to Northern Kentucky University.
Also, I was a contract engineer to Doug Braden in the mid-'90s through November, 1996, working with Jim Wagner, Doug's long-time engineer. So, I was a small part of 'The Rebel' too.
When Jerry Eaves, engineer for WPAY, died in 1995, I spent a year at WPAY recreating the knowledge that died with Jerry - whom I had not met.
Doug Braden is a friend, and told me he was simply retiring. WNKU was approached to buy the stations, which we will upon FCC approval. We began an LMA on February 1st.
I personally 'pulled the plug' on the 'Rebel' that I had some years earlier worked to keep on the air as studio engineer. It was not done with pleasure on my part or anyone's.
The sale will be funded by Kentucky bonds, and repaid by our new network's members and underwriting.
Ironically, I was an engineer for Xavier's X-Star Network after working for Doug Braden. Xavier sold the network, in which they had never made a meaningful investment. Xavier kept the $15 million.
The new WNKU network will be successful as was X-Star. My friend and boss at X-Star, Jay Crawford, was a major factor putting our new satellite system together. It is a small world!
Jeff Johnson, Sr. Engineer
WNKU
Also, I was a contract engineer to Doug Braden in the mid-'90s through November, 1996, working with Jim Wagner, Doug's long-time engineer. So, I was a small part of 'The Rebel' too.
When Jerry Eaves, engineer for WPAY, died in 1995, I spent a year at WPAY recreating the knowledge that died with Jerry - whom I had not met.
Doug Braden is a friend, and told me he was simply retiring. WNKU was approached to buy the stations, which we will upon FCC approval. We began an LMA on February 1st.
I personally 'pulled the plug' on the 'Rebel' that I had some years earlier worked to keep on the air as studio engineer. It was not done with pleasure on my part or anyone's.
The sale will be funded by Kentucky bonds, and repaid by our new network's members and underwriting.
Ironically, I was an engineer for Xavier's X-Star Network after working for Doug Braden. Xavier sold the network, in which they had never made a meaningful investment. Xavier kept the $15 million.
The new WNKU network will be successful as was X-Star. My friend and boss at X-Star, Jay Crawford, was a major factor putting our new satellite system together. It is a small world!
Jeff Johnson, Sr. Engineer
WNKU
Thanks for the inside story, Jeff!
I loved the old X-Star network. It was a particular treat to hear it while driving through Northern Lower Michigan one day.
I loved the old X-Star network. It was a particular treat to hear it while driving through Northern Lower Michigan one day.
I listened to the Crawfordsville, IN X-Star network station. I think it was dropped long before the rest of the network was sold.
BTW, I have been listening to both WPFBs this week.
BTW, I have been listening to both WPFBs this week.
I'm sure Jeff can answer this, but I'm guessing 105.9 and 104.1 are on makeshift STLs at this point.
Yes, I miss the X-Star Network also. Alas.
WNKU's new network will be a worthy successor in the music area. WNKU broadcasts mostly music - an expanded AAA format.
I agree WPFB-FM is not up to our standard in terms of audio. We have no control presently other than feeding audio from our downlink receiver. WPFB-FM runs an Orban 8500 that is presently 'locked out', so I could not snoop. The exciter is a temporary RVR unit. I do not know what will be in place when we take possession. The audio will be cleaned up. I've noticed the lack of a clearly distinct stereo separation. There is 'something' more than mono, but I have no means of dealing with the audio as yet. The audio is also a bit harsh.
WNKU runs an Orban 8500 running the preset 'Smooth Jazz'. The transmitter is a V7.5 with the M50 exciter. We run -17dBc IBOC.
At WPFB-FM, we hope to replace the combined RCA transmitters with a new TX in a revamped building out by the tower. Presently, there is a very lengthy 3 1/8 transmission running hundreds of feet to the tower. It has RCA 51.5 ohm hardline in part. The bullets connecting to the Heliax are the curious bi-impedance type with different diameters on either end. I helped Jim Wagner replace one of the hard line sections back in the mid-90s.
We will have to go with a new Nautel TX due to space limitations (isn't there always??) and single phase power at the tower base.
Our STL is a Ku band service with NPRSS on Galaxy 17. 128kbps, MPEG1 Layer2. The uplink is in place and is a 2.4m Prodelin offset dish with NPRSS supplied AnaCom AnaSat 4 watt Ku Band transciever, a Radyne DMD20 modem, and a Tiernan DAC7000 encoder. Downlink receivers are Tiernan ABR202A. Yes, the password is still 'HOMEYD', just like the Comstream ABR200.
The downlink dishes are temporary, used Primestar dishes on spare tire mounts. The LNBs are digital-grade PLL as supplied by NPRSS. The Primestar dishes are surprisingly effective.
The permanent downlink at WPFB will be a conversion of the existing Comtech 3.8 dish to Ku band. That will be 'on line' by the end of the month. The permanent downlink dish at WPAY will be a Prodelin 2.4m offset dish at the new TX site. It will will be installed probably in March or April.
Backup will be automatic failover to to sets of Tieline Bridge-ITs connected to the Internet. They will failover to an internal SDHC chip with an 'evergreen' emergency audio file.
Jeff Johnson, Sr. Engineer
WNKU
WNKU's new network will be a worthy successor in the music area. WNKU broadcasts mostly music - an expanded AAA format.
I agree WPFB-FM is not up to our standard in terms of audio. We have no control presently other than feeding audio from our downlink receiver. WPFB-FM runs an Orban 8500 that is presently 'locked out', so I could not snoop. The exciter is a temporary RVR unit. I do not know what will be in place when we take possession. The audio will be cleaned up. I've noticed the lack of a clearly distinct stereo separation. There is 'something' more than mono, but I have no means of dealing with the audio as yet. The audio is also a bit harsh.
WNKU runs an Orban 8500 running the preset 'Smooth Jazz'. The transmitter is a V7.5 with the M50 exciter. We run -17dBc IBOC.
At WPFB-FM, we hope to replace the combined RCA transmitters with a new TX in a revamped building out by the tower. Presently, there is a very lengthy 3 1/8 transmission running hundreds of feet to the tower. It has RCA 51.5 ohm hardline in part. The bullets connecting to the Heliax are the curious bi-impedance type with different diameters on either end. I helped Jim Wagner replace one of the hard line sections back in the mid-90s.
We will have to go with a new Nautel TX due to space limitations (isn't there always??) and single phase power at the tower base.
Our STL is a Ku band service with NPRSS on Galaxy 17. 128kbps, MPEG1 Layer2. The uplink is in place and is a 2.4m Prodelin offset dish with NPRSS supplied AnaCom AnaSat 4 watt Ku Band transciever, a Radyne DMD20 modem, and a Tiernan DAC7000 encoder. Downlink receivers are Tiernan ABR202A. Yes, the password is still 'HOMEYD', just like the Comstream ABR200.
The downlink dishes are temporary, used Primestar dishes on spare tire mounts. The LNBs are digital-grade PLL as supplied by NPRSS. The Primestar dishes are surprisingly effective.
The permanent downlink at WPFB will be a conversion of the existing Comtech 3.8 dish to Ku band. That will be 'on line' by the end of the month. The permanent downlink dish at WPAY will be a Prodelin 2.4m offset dish at the new TX site. It will will be installed probably in March or April.
Backup will be automatic failover to to sets of Tieline Bridge-ITs connected to the Internet. They will failover to an internal SDHC chip with an 'evergreen' emergency audio file.
Jeff Johnson, Sr. Engineer
WNKU
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