Classic Hits: Evolution or Revolution?

[michael hagerty]

Yes, in my city, the Oldies station was top ten in 18-34 year olds, just before everything started crashing down in 2004. I figured that since you opened the door with 45 year-olds being receptive to non-age appropriate offerings that this would work at least as well. At least, they know the music, mostly by heart. We're talking cume, here, not TSL and think of all those stores that would have it on in the backgrouind. It sounds pretty good for PPM.

Wow. That's very unusual performance. What city?

 

[oldies76]

I believe Oldies has illustrated this before, but if Classic Hits should in reality be more focused on 1982-1988, then there are still plenty of Top 10's neglected from that era.

You bet there are. I mentioned a selection of songs from 1983 (maybe 5 of them) to Mr. Hagerty a few days ago that are mostly neglected today (very good songs I might add..)...prime period for classic hits today and they are still being left in a "Disney" type vault.

The only way to hear these great tunes today is by tuning into an AT40 80's countdown. That should not be necessary.

 

[semoochie]

Portland

 

[michael hagerty]

Portland

Maine or Oregon?

 

[semoochie]

Market #23, not #90(Hey they grew; I didn't know that. They used to be way up in the hundreds!)

 

[michael hagerty]

Market #23, not #90(Hey they grew; I didn't know that. They used to be way up in the hundreds!)

Nice town (#23, never been to #90)!

Well, I'm stunned that an Oldies would perform so well 18-34. I'm guessing (and it's only that) they changed because they were also top-heavy in listeners 55+.

That'd be my second concern...that the station, no matter how good it looked in a sales demo, might also have a top-heavy median listener age, which can scare off the agencies (they don't see non-demo listeners as a bonus).

My first concern would be, after 8 years, in getting all those former 18-34s back. Portland's a pretty stable town, so people leaving town wouldn't be as big an issue as in a lot of cities, but you'd need 'em all, because #13 or #15 in 25-44 isn't going to be a compelling sales proposition.

 

[davideduardo]

Well, I'm stunned that an Oldies would perform so well 18-34. I'm guessing (and it's only that) they changed because they were also top-heavy in listeners 55+.

In Fall of '03 they were 11th in 18-34, and by Fall of '04 they were 23rd in that demo.

Spring of '04 was the deciding book, I think.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-R&R/R&R-2005-1-Fall-04.pdf

13th in 18-34, and 12th in 25-54. That was the "game's over" call.. while they were 4th overall, it was mostly 55+ by that time. And that was a diary market then.

I spot checked Duncan and R&R reports, and don't find KKSN in the top 10 18-34. They came closer than most, but were still an old-leaning play for the most part.

 

[semoochie]

Thank you for that info, David. They were still #11 in teens, while trending down, but it makes me wonder how they fell to #23 18-34 at the same time. The thing about KKSN, is they then dropped all the pre-Beatles stuff and added early 70s. The first ratings book came out and they weren't up. Just before the second came out, they changed to Adult Hits to circumvent CBS from changing either 106.7 or 107.5 to Jack. When the ratings came out, they were #4 in total audience and(I believe)#5 25-54. Not only had they jumped the gun but had succeeded in killing off a 45 year old brand, KISN!

 

[PirateJohnny]

A hit is only a hit, when it's the hit version. I don't want to hear Dionne Warwick sing it either, if it isn't the hit version. I used this as an example of a song that didn't chart very high and hasn't been played much, if at all, in over 45 years and not much before. I was trying to convey a sense of what it would be like for the average listener by using an example of a low charting song. For most people, "New Girl In School" or "The Little Girl I Once Knew" would create the same response. Even here, I'll bet most posters(in the demo)have never heard of those two songs but you're probably thinking "Oh wow!".

Both of these are in my library.

I have never lived in L.A., where The Bobby Fuller Four's Let Her Dance was huge. I understand it was not heard outside of L.A.. I heard it a few years ago on Little Steven's Underground Garage. Within a week I owned a CD with that song on it. I would definitely not tune out a station that played it, even though I never heard it as a current.

I'm sure other's have had similar experiences. Yeah, but not enough to program a station.

 

[semoochie]

I think that most people won't tune out, when hearing an unfamiliar song and never come back, unless it happens too often, not that they won't tune out temporarily.

 

[davideduardo]

I think that most people won't tune out, when hearing an unfamiliar song and never come back, unless it happens too often, not that they won't tune out temporarily.

Mr PPM disagrees, and we can see the moment by moment data in MediaMonitors to prove it.

 

[semoochie]

Now, that is really surprising! I had no idea it was that delicate. I thought that generally, people would reason that they liked the overall sound of the station and return.

 

[michael hagerty]

I think that most people won't tune out, when hearing an unfamiliar song and never come back, unless it happens too often, not that they won't tune out temporarily.

Remember that ratings are a factor of two things: Cume (the total number of bodies listening) and TSL (Time Spent Listening). Those get you to your Average Quarter-Hour Share (the percentage of radios in use tuned to your station in any given 15-minute period). And that's what agencies are looking at.

The key isn't tuning out and never coming back (though that's a possibility), it's tuning out sooner than they otherwise would have, affecting TSL. And given the number of other stations the average Classic Hits listener spends their time with, you may not get that listener back for a day or two, or more.

As you suggest, repeating the error will cause them to tune back in less often, and at some point perhaps give up ("I used to like them, but now everytime I tune in, they're playing some record I never liked/never heard before/one of my favorite artists does better").

Again, it's a mood service. And if you don't deliver, there are 6 to 8 other places that listener can go at the touch of a button.

 

[firepoint525]

They toss in songs that I don't know and I'd rather they didn't. It isn't that no one knows these songs but I certainly don't. The other day, they played a version of "Always Something There To Remind Me" that I'd never heard. It was by Sandi Shaw, a big 60s hitmaker in the UK but not so much here. It charted but not very high. If I tune in in three weeks and hear the same song, that's a concern. If I hear it again, it's a tuneout, even for a radio guy! What must the average listener think?

Sorry, but if you don't know basic hit songs from the past, then either you weren't paying attention in your youth when all these "current oh wow" songs were being played or you are not in their current target demo. Granted the Sandy Shaw song is a low charter (#52 in 1965), but the MELODY is familiar. And remember this, an "oh wow" song does not have to be a low charter, it can be a #1 song as well that isn't played much today.
The average listener won't mind much if the "oh wows" played today, were big hits in their day. Playing them TODAY, creates the "oh wow" reaction!

I'm wondering if this was the version used in an episode of American Dreams about 10 years or so ago. But they took such "artistic license" with using songs that should not have been released yet (according to THEIR time frame!) that they might as well have gone ahead and used the Naked Eyes version! After all, it's the one that I remember! 8)

 

[firepoint525]

I think that most people won't tune out, when hearing an unfamiliar song and never come back, unless it happens too often, not that they won't tune out temporarily.

Again, it's a mood service. And if you don't deliver, there are 6 to 8 other places that listener can go at the touch of a button.

As do I, but most of us must go to OTHER formats for that much variety or that many choices. I know that that is the case here with me.

 

[firepoint525]

Who says all those people who've moved left the media market? Don't those "movers" include people who move to the next town over, or someplace 25 miles away, where the radio dial is identical? I grew up in two Massachusetts towns 40 miles apart; my family moved when I was 15. I listened to the same Boston stations, playing the same regional hits, in both. I would think that most -- or at least a significant minority of -- people who move don't go very far away. I work with a bunch of people who've lived in two or three towns in the Hartford/New Haven area during the course of their lives. The ones who are old enough remember the regional hits. I respect statistics, Michael, but unless the ones you cite define "one community" and "same city or town" as "one media market" or "same SMSA," then they don't prove your point at all.

CT: Good points. I had to review the actual questions asked, and it's a bit vague...they ask if you live "in or near" your home town or city, without ever setting a distance. There are follow-up questions as to whether you have family within an hour's drive, but it's not clear where or if lines are drawn. Even out of state could be moving from New York City to Newark.
Pew usually does better work. I'll see what else might be out there and better defined. Census figures tell us there's been significant migration within our country the past 40 years.

In my case, I grew up in Memphis, then we lived about two hours from Memphis during my teen years, but still close enough to hear the Memphis stations with the antenna on the roof of the house. We were just outside the official Memphis market, but I remember that "Germantown Blues" (see my "regional hits" thread) got airplay not only in Memphis, but in Jackson and Union City, as well.

Now I live just west of Nashville, but I still have a feel for almost anything with a Memphis or rural west Tennessee connection. Here in Nashville (almost) everything is "country," but it was cool to meet Deborah Allen (Memphis native) and hear her perform. She came to this small town to play (several times in fact), probably because her sister was the city recorder here at the time.

 

[oldies76]

that they might as well have gone ahead and used the Naked Eyes version! After all, it's the one that I remember! 8)

It's the preferred version and the one remembered the most from our youth (1983), no question, but the other two (Shaw & Warwick) will not make me tune out either. It's the same song, just more original. Actually there are other versions by Lou Johnson and RB Greaves, which I've never heard.....yet.

 

[michael hagerty]

that they might as well have gone ahead and used the Naked Eyes version! After all, it's the one that I remember! 8)

It's the preferred version and the one remembered the most from our youth (1983), no question, but the other two (Shaw & Warwick) will not make me tune out either. It's the same song, just more original. Actually there are other versions by Lou Johnson and RB Greaves, which I've never heard.....yet.

Until Naked Eyes, the R.B. Greaves was the only one I had ever heard.

 

[RIN3GUY]

that they might as well have gone ahead and used the Naked Eyes version! After all, it's the one that I remember! 8)

It's the preferred version and the one remembered the most from our youth (1983), no question, but the other two (Shaw & Warwick) will not make me tune out either. It's the same song, just more original. Actually there are other versions by Lou Johnson and RB Greaves, which I've never heard.....yet.

Patti LaBelle also did a nice one, which reached #125 in 1967. Definitely a "deep cut"! I wonder if "Bubbling Under" songs ever get tested. : I'm sure almost all of them are lost to time and history, just like most of the rest of the charts. But it is nice to hear an alternate version of a song sometimes. When a new cover would hit the AT40, I always enjoyed hearing Casey's flashbacks. Earlier versions were always enlightening. Phil Collins' "You Can't Hurry Love" is fine, but it will never replace the Supremes' original. So in certain cases both should still be played.

 

[oldies76]

Patti LaBelle also did a nice one, which reached #125 in 1967. Definitely a "deep cut"! I wonder if "Bubbling Under" songs ever get tested. :

Possibly a few might...one comes to mind is "Crazy Train" by Ozzy, according to Whitburn's Pop Annual (1955-2011), it reached #106 in the summer of '81.

There has to be others, but far and few to be sure.