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Commercials Commercial Commercials

There is also supply and demand at work. In the days of yore, when Cleveland was a top market and there were maybe 10 major radio stations, with possible ratings of 15, 20, even 30 shares,
Back in 1960, there were 8 AMs. No FM got ratings. But the numbers were pretty well spread out between WHK at one end and WABQ at the other.
only 3 TV stations and a couple of newspapers, the supply of commercial availabilities was much smaller, hence radio could charge a high price for spots, often playing fewer spots at higher cost because they could.
Pricing was based on national agency Cost Per Thousand or Cost Per Point goals based on how many people each share or ratings figure represented. In other words, the cost per point in Dayton was about half that of Cleveland.
Now, with dozens of radio stations, hundreds of TV channels, and an almost infinite choice over the internet plus a market that's half what it was,
Metro Cleveland in 2024 is 1,771,000 and in 1960 it was 1,789,000.

The market has not grown, but it is not "half what it was". The market is not just one city. It is several counties.
the supply of advertising choices is far greater while the advertising dollars percentage wise are still much the same. That means proportionally lower spot rates and more spots needed to pay the light bill and other costs which have also risen greatly.
It's still a free market and ultimately the free market will shape the industry.
The biggest shift in ad dollars is from newspapers, which overwhelmingly out-billed all radio stations combined in the 60's.

But the 60's and 70's saw the end of the Plain Dealer's afternoon paper and, then, the closure of the Press. And the money moved to TV and then cable and then the Internet.
 
Yes, people generally dial away when a spot break starts,
Actually, real research has show that this does not happen in huge numbers. It is vastly more likely that they dial away if they hear a song they hate.
 
And then the morning guy stumbled in and knocked the stack over, right? 🤪
Nope, I was usually out the door before he started. Met him in passing most of the time and usually surly so it was "Hi/Bye!"" News guy got to be the go between and took the brunt of his wrath most of the time. Then on air, you''d think he was the most friendly, delightful guy on the planet earth. Of course, I''d be crabby to if I had to get up that early every day.
 
I was a long time listener of WQKT in Wooster. I forgot my bluetooth adaptor one day a couple weeks ago in the truck so I listened to WNCO here in Ashland. Out of the 15 min drive to town 7 minutes were commercials. My wife and I pay more attention now since I started an online station. They play alot more commercials than WQKT before the switch. I flip to WQKT occasionally just out of curiosity and to their credit they still have a pretty low commercial load compared to others even though it's being ran as "for profit" they say.
 
Lower rated stations just control expenses. Usually, they are part of a cluster and all the station in the group "average out". The lower rated stations will have different revenue goals than the higher rated ones.

This is an important point to make. The assumption here seems to be that WAKS is a single station, as though it was the 1970s.

Which company has the #1 radio station in Cleveland? How about #2? Which company has 5 stations in the Top 10?

WAKS ratings are not as important as it offers advertisers different demographics from WMMS and WMJI.

Not every station in the cluster can be #1. The role for WAKS is different than the role for WGAR.
 
I was a long time listener of WQKT in Wooster. I forgot my bluetooth adaptor one day a couple weeks ago in the truck so I listened to WNCO here in Ashland. Out of the 15 min drive to town 7 minutes were commercials. My wife and I pay more attention now since I started an online station. They play alot more commercials than WQKT before the switch. I flip to WQKT occasionally just out of curiosity and to their credit they still have a pretty low commercial load compared to others even though it's being ran as "for profit" they say.
If you flip to QKT now, you will find "The River" The landscape is ever changing in radio! And part of that overall is listenership!
 
I was a long time listener of WQKT in Wooster. I forgot my bluetooth adaptor one day a couple weeks ago in the truck so I listened to WNCO here in Ashland. Out of the 15 min drive to town 7 minutes were commercials. My wife and I pay more attention now since I started an online station. They play alot more commercials than WQKT before the switch. I flip to WQKT occasionally just out of curiosity and to their credit they still have a pretty low commercial load compared to others even though it's being ran as "for profit" they say.
WQKT's old country format was programmed by Westwood One which used a format clock with fixed length spot loads (I don't think they ever used the more fluid WW1 Local).
 
Actually, real research has show that this does not happen in huge numbers. It is vastly more likely that they dial away if they hear a song they hate.
I've got to think everyone isn't always in a position to tune out a commercial or a song they don't like. If I'm changing oil at Jiffy Lube with the radio on I'm probably not changing the station.
 
Not every station in the cluster can be #1. The role for WAKS is different than the role for WGAR.
It seems that the WAKS role is to be a dumping ground for company-wide bonus spots assigned to the company's lowest rated station, therefore doing minimal damage. These spots are certainly not placed on WAKS due to their ratings success. As far as demos go, they do not even have strong performance in any under 25 demo. When the only straight CHR in a market can't hit #1 or #2 in 12 to 17, it can only be a sacrificial lamb.
 
When the only straight CHR in a market can't hit #1 or #2 in 12 to 17, it can only be a sacrificial lamb.

That's more a statement on the people of Cleveland, who seem to prefer classic radio formats over currents. WAKS could likely get better numbers playing older music, but then they'd cannibalize their stations in the Top 5. How many currents does WMMS play? (when they play music)

As far as demos go, they do not even have strong performance in any under 25 demo.

There is no radio sales category that aims strictly for under 25.
 
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Also, more than one break had the same spot repeated over again in the same spot break. It seems to me that there is no consideration for avoiding annoying the listener in their quest to make their financials.

There is an advertising gimmick on both radio and TV called a "bookend" spot, where an advertiser places the same (or similar) commercials at each end of a commercial break, or stopset.

If properly done, it bookends a string of commercials and it should also be the last commercial you hear as well in a break, unless there is a station sweeper, ID, weather segment, liner read, etc..

It may sound like a repetitious, or a scheduling mistake, but it did what it was it supposed to do -- drill a little farther into your sub-conscious mind than other spots in the break.

If there is anything good about bookend spots (once you know which spots ARE bookends), is that hearing the 2nd of the two ads usually indicates the break is just about over (provided the station does it correctly) and the agony is almost over.
 
The market has not grown, but it is not "half what it was". The market is not just one city. It is several counties.
Nielsen ranks Cleveland the #35 radio market. Just a few years ago we were #28. I would have to believe in 1966 we were in the top twenty at least, if not the top ten, in radio market rankings. It's not so much that the population has changed as we are not growing while other markets with fast growing populations have leapfrogged ahead of us. We are classified a slow or no growth market.
Interestingly, Advance Publications, the PD people, say in a sales pitch that if all their proclaimed market of Northern Ohio were one city metro, it would rank #4 nationally just behind LA. But that includes Akron, Youngstown, Canton, et al and these areas are broken out as separate Nielsen markets.
 
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There is an advertising gimmick on both radio and TV called a "bookend" spot, where an advertiser places the same (or similar) commercials at each end of a commercial break, or stopset.

Correct. Rather than buy one :30, some advertisers prefer to buy two :15s. The point of ad repetition is for impressions. That's what advertisers buy. That's the reason why you hear the same spot a lot, and why advertisers want to be annoying. Recording artists feel the same way. When told that a certain song is annoying, the artist will tell you that at least you have an opinion. The last thing an artist wants to do is make music that is wallpaper. Same with advertising. When you say a particular ad is annoying, the advertiser will say "Mission accomplished."

I say all this because advertising is integral with commercial radio. If you listen, it helps to understand the purpose of advertising. You'll see similar things on commercial TV, or even ad-supported streaming.
 
Some stations manage to create good spots for their local advertisers (in those cases, contrary to what BigA said, the client is not responsible for producing their spots). But we cannot control the presentation when an agency buys the time and provides the commercial, pre-produced.

For local direct, I've seen some jocks and sales staff push back on the clients and suggest they shouldn't make a spot sounds a certain way for a certain reason. My experience was most were receptive and would make recommended changes. Most local clients didn't have the means to run their own research and were usually grateful for the advice, but some were not. In the end, the client wants what he wants, and, especially in smaller markets, no one is going to walk away from a buy.

If listeners know there is going to be a 5 minute block of commercials, don't you think a lot of them would switch the station as soon as the first commercial comes on? They would not likely do that if they knew there would only be a couple commercials.

That has been tried multiple times, and it doesn't work. When you have shorter music sweeps with shorter commercial breaks, the usual response from the listener is something to the effect of, "You do nothing but play commercials." Around 2006 or '07, Clear Channel embarked on a program called "Less Is More." It cut the maximum length of a spot from one minute to 30 seconds as well as offered 10 and 15 second buys and exclusive hours. The total number of units per hour was never higher than it was under the previous schedule, and the total time spent on commercials per hour was never more than what it previously was. Listeners had the exact opposite perception. The average listener thought the spot load had gone way up and hated it. Advertisers hated it, too. I don't think it even lasted a year.

I'm not in radio sales but maybe someone here can tell us, how much revenue does a typical P.I. spot bring in? I don't mean the outlier like in the top 5 percent of P,I. spots, but on average? And how many low-value, dollar-a-holler (or less), network and free bonus spots typically reside in these endless breaks?

I'm not sure what the average is, but that number is based on the number of people listening in an average quarter hour. I've worked for stations that sold one minute spots for $200 a pop and others that sold them for $35 each. While we always had some spots on trade/barter, we generally didn't give bonus spots away during local programming. If we had to fill time during syndication or satellite programming, we had little choice but to give away the airtime we couldn't sell. It might or might not be typical, but my experience was that the stations with $200 spots were less likely to trade out services, like coffee and filtered water, than the stations with $35 spots. The stations with syndicated programming, like Delilah, had no choice but to offer a few barter spots during prime listening hours. Imaging and leases on station vehicles were often traded out, too, and at least some of those spots had to air from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM, though you could sometimes negotiate a wider schedule for the barter.

I could be wrong but it feels like in general, commercial radio is willing to give airtime to virtually anything that brings in a penny at the cost of lowering the entertainment value of the on-air product. Perhaps I'm cynical to think many of these broadcasting companies are laser-focused on short term gains no matter how small, without much concern for how it affects the listening experience. Do they underprice the value of their airtime attracting cheap, bottom feeding advertisers while repelling listeners in the long term?

Radio has always been the cheap medium. With rates at newspapers and TV stations going down, radio has not kept up with its rates compared to 20 years ago when adjusted for inflation. Simply put, it can't. I don't know if that answers your question, but I don't see many stations underpricing their airtime. They're charging the most they can get for those spots. It's just not what it used to be.
 
For local direct, I've seen some jocks and sales staff push back on the clients and suggest they shouldn't make a spot sounds a certain way for a certain reason. My experience was most were receptive and would make recommended changes. Most local clients didn't have the means to run their own research and were usually grateful for the advice, but some were not. In the end, the client wants what he wants, and, especially in smaller markets, no one is going to walk away from a buy.



That has been tried multiple times, and it doesn't work. When you have shorter music sweeps with shorter commercial breaks, the usual response from the listener is something to the effect of, "You do nothing but play commercials." Around 2006 or '07, Clear Channel embarked on a program called "Less Is More." It cut the maximum length of a spot from one minute to 30 seconds as well as offered 10 and 15 second buys and exclusive hours. The total number of units per hour was never higher than it was under the previous schedule, and the total time spent on commercials per hour was never more than what it previously was. Listeners had the exact opposite perception. The average listener thought the spot load had gone way up and hated it. Advertisers hated it, too. I don't think it even lasted a year.



I'm not sure what the average is, but that number is based on the number of people listening in an average quarter hour. I've worked for stations that sold one minute spots for $200 a pop and others that sold them for $35 each. While we always had some spots on trade/barter, we generally didn't give bonus spots away during local programming. If we had to fill time during syndication or satellite programming, we had little choice but to give away the airtime we couldn't sell. It might or might not be typical, but my experience was that the stations with $200 spots were less likely to trade out services, like coffee and filtered water, than the stations with $35 spots. The stations with syndicated programming, like Delilah, had no choice but to offer a few barter spots during prime listening hours. Imaging and leases on station vehicles were often traded out, too, and at least some of those spots had to air from 6:00 AM to 6:00 PM, though you could sometimes negotiate a wider schedule for the barter.



Radio has always been the cheap medium. With rates at newspapers and TV stations going down, radio has not kept up with its rates compared to 20 years ago when adjusted for inflation. Simply put, it can't. I don't know if that answers your question, but I don't see many stations underpricing their airtime. They're charging the most they can get for those spots. It's just not what it used to be.

As afternoon/prod guy for a small cluster in NW PA years ago, i pushed back against the sales people all the time when it was crap.... because i wanted proof and evidence i cared, so they could never come back and say i didnt do a good job, didn't say anything or use any excuse to get bonuses for the client or have the client say it didnt work.

The sales people would be sometimes aggravated with me.. but i said, its my job to liase between programming and sales....... and id tell clients "I know what radio is capable of and i want the best for you were capable of, plus if i spot something this easily wrong with a commercial someone else will.." and like 99 percent of them really loved my honesty. In fact, one gave me cash after we were done because i had been so honest with him and he took up alot of my time.
 
It seems that the WAKS role is to be a dumping ground for company-wide bonus spots assigned to the company's lowest rated station, therefore doing minimal damage. These spots are certainly not placed on WAKS due to their ratings success. As far as demos go, they do not even have strong performance in any under 25 demo. When the only straight CHR in a market can't hit #1 or #2 in 12 to 17, it can only be a sacrificial lamb.
You are missing how cluster sales works. Groups sell a set of stations at a price that delivers agency objectives at the desired cost per impression or cost per point. A set of stations may have different contributions to each demographic, but groups are not "giving away" any station.

An order for a group of five stations against, let's say, 25-44 year old women will have a price for the combo. The station has priced based on the total delivery of that demo and not on individual stations. In other words. "we'll get you an AQH of 32,000 women across the five stations at a rate of $xx per spot". It is not "if you buy four stations, we give you the fifth one". That is not how agencies buy.
 
Nielsen ranks Cleveland the #35 radio market. Just a few years ago we were #28. I would have to believe in 1966 we were in the top twenty at least, if not the top ten, in radio market rankings.
At one time, Cleveland was a top 10 market. Other markets grew and passed Cleveland in population. But the population of the metro area has not declined... it has just stagnated.

That is why Cleveland, well before the Internet, went from three daily papers to just one. And now the Plain Dealer is not even a print daily. Change in the market and change in the media consumers follow.
It's not so much that the population has changed as we are not growing while other markets with fast growing populations have leapfrogged ahead of us. We are classified a slow or no growth market.
But advertisers don't buy growth. They buy the current population and how many are using a particular medium.
Interestingly, Advance Publications, the PD people, say in a sales pitch that if all their proclaimed market of Northern Ohio were one city metro, it would rank #4 nationally just behind LA. But that includes Akron, Youngstown, Canton, et al and these areas are broken out as separate Nielsen markets.
And that is because the radio and TV markets are limited to just one or two of those cities and surrounding areas. No Youngstown radio station is listenable in the Cleveland Metro Survey Area. Even the overlap of Cleveland and Akron coverage areas is limited.
 
When the only straight CHR in a market can't hit #1 or #2 in 12 to 17, it can only be a sacrificial lamb.
CHR stations do not target 12 to 17. The primary target is 18-34 and/or 25-44 women. Period.
 
Yes, but 12-17 should be a shoe-in for a CHR and it is not in Kiss' case.

Where are you seeing all this teen listening for CHR? Not at Z100 or KIIS. Why program to a demo you can't sell?

How does it help a station when my 10 minute trip to the store is 100% commercials?

If it was up to the advertisers, all you'd ever hear is commercials. They're the ones paying.

Also if you only listen for ten minutes a day, you're not going to contribute anything to their AQH,

If you want to hear fewer commercials, listen after 7PM. More music, no talk, fewer commercials.
 
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