FM - no AM - portable CD player

[Kelly A]

What worries me about this possibility is that low-VHF isn't good for anything else.

Why on earth would that worry you? Aren't there more concerning issues in life?

 

[Miss Tuned]

AM is expensive to maintain too.

KSKO went from 1 10KW full time AM transmitter to one Class D FM non comm as the "main" signal and 8 Class D non comm fm's as "Repeaters" as its much much cheaper to run.. and we cover more people, better now than the AM did.

For what it cost to run JUST THE AM transmitter for a year, we can run the ENTIRE operation now for 3-4 months.
(No city mains power, $6 to $8 a gallon for generator fuel, maintenance, repairs)

We dont cover a bunch of tundra tumbleweeds now, but more villages than before have perfect reception 24/7 because the FM signals are located in their village.. not 100-150-200 miles away. Plus, during solar upsets/storms, it would ruin anything but local AM radio reception

How do you feed your repeaters? Satellite?

 

[SomeRadioGuy]

Yes AM is expensive no matter how you slice it. Would you say that the Alaskan Bush has poor ground conductivity, though? Perhaps an AM NPR station (You do run a public format, right?) would make better sense in the Dakotas, Kansas, or Manitoba/Saskatchewan where you've got CBK and CBW covering 400+ miles with one signal.

You do have a big 50kw outlet on 540 for the CBC in Saskatchewan.. huge coverage. Signals travel far here because of an uncluttered dial and water nearby but theyre expensive to run.

 

[davideduardo]

You do have a big 50kw outlet on 540 for the CBC in Saskatchewan.. huge coverage. Signals travel far here because of an uncluttered dial and water nearby but theyre expensive to run.

The reason the dial is relatively uncluttered is that the FCC takes into account ground conductivity in licensing co-channel and adjacent channel stations. Those in that area with ground conductivity of 30 are protected much farther out than a similar facility in northern Georgia or much of New England.

A good example is WNAX in Yankton: the FM is 100 kw at 981 feet. The AM is 5 kw at 570. The FM technical facility costs more to run than the AM, yet the AM covers about 8 times the population and bills about six times as much money.

 

[DaveBayArea]

A good example is WNAX in Yankton: the FM is 100 kw at 981 feet. The AM is 5 kw at 570. The FM technical facility costs more to run than the AM, yet the AM covers about 8 times the population and bills about six times as much money.

Today I'm an old fart living in CA, but I grew up there and I remember that signal. It used to stop the "wonder bar" on car radios for at least 150 miles around. During the daytime. I was impressed by what you said regarding the billing, so I had to look up what their format was. Wow. Super-serving what they call the "5-state area". I guess that's how you run a successful radio station in a town with a population of 15,000 people. Yeah, it helps to have a monster signal. But kudos to Saga for what they're doing there.

Dave B.

 

[boombox4]

And the blame for that aims squarely at AM broadcasters and radio nerds. Back when the IBOC standard was being chosen for AM, the cries and objections from duffer's claiming AM ain't broke, delayed any progress on having full digital AM as an option. Now here we are: AM is the gramophone of quality, relegated to a number of formats you can count on one hand. Consumers have moved on to other more convenient devices. Not that consumer habits wouldn't have changed anyway, but the shortsightedness of those who said AM was fine the way it was, ultimately are being proven dead wrong.

I appreciate your full response, KellyA, but wanted to note I'm in full agreement here on this particular point.

It always irritated me that DXers in particular (and other AM radio aficionados in general) would always denigrate the new technology constantly, calling it "I-Block" and similar monikers. I'll admit that sometimes the buzz was irritating when tuning past a station, but I knew that the IBOC could represent the future, and when I finally was able to get an HD radio I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the sound on the two AM stations here in Seattle that were still running IBOC (KKDZ and KFNQ). Within a couple months both stations switched it off. Probably the equipment broke and they didn't see replacing it as a cost-effective move.

The saddest thing (if you can actually express it that way) is that IBOC probably could have worked if the equipment wasn't so expensively proprietary and more HD radios had gotten out to the public at more affordable prices earlier on.

It wouldn't have made the AM band last forever, obviously, nor would it have reinvigorated it to anywhere near where FM is, but it might have given the AM band a longer life.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Why on earth would that worry you? Aren't there more concerning issues in life?

I suppose if a person had the money to keep subscribing to cable or, where that wasn't available, a dish, it wouldn't be a problem, as long as the signal got to them. But you ask anyone who has tried to pick up a low-VHF station with an antenna. If it's not good for anything else, and there is spectrum to sell that can be used for other purposes, what do you think is going to happen?

 

[ZantennaG1]

Today I'm an old fart living in CA, but I grew up there and I remember that signal. It used to stop the "wonder bar" on car radios for at least 150 miles around. During the daytime. I was impressed by what you said regarding the billing, so I had to look up what their format was. Wow. Super-serving what they call the "5-state area". I guess that's how you run a successful radio station in a town with a population of 15,000 people. Yeah, it helps to have a monster signal. But kudos to Saga for what they're doing there.

Dave B.

WNAX was at least readable (daytime) during my stay in Rapid City, and that was about 300 miles away. It wasn't like a local, but it still held it's ground nicely even in the nosier areas of RC. Someone on YouTube said that when they were just North-east of Minneapolis, WNAX boomed in for them (daytime)

 

[ZantennaG1]

Why on earth would that worry you? Aren't there more concerning issues in life?

I suppose if a person had the money to keep subscribing to cable or, where that wasn't available, a dish, it wouldn't be a problem, as long as the signal got to them. But you ask anyone who has tried to pick up a low-VHF station with an antenna. If it's not good for anything else, and there is spectrum to sell that can be used for other purposes, what do you think is going to happen?

We don't see a certain piece of spectrum as important right now, but perhaps in the future we'll find a much better use for it, and we'll wish we didn't sell it off or vacate it for the scientists.

 

[Kelly A]

I suppose if a person had the money to keep subscribing to cable or, where that wasn't available, a dish, it wouldn't be a problem, as long as the signal got to them. But you ask anyone who has tried to pick up a low-VHF station with an antenna.

Do you have low band VHF DTV stations in your area?

If it's not good for anything else, and there is spectrum to sell that can be used for other purposes, what do you think is going to happen?

Just like the AM band, it's worthless for modern technology. The problem has always been for low band VHF is; terrestrial noise. What few remaining stations are in that band all run much lower power because of propagation effects. The noise floor on that band is so high, that stations parked there just don't have enough field strength to get over the noise floor. High noise floor, low field strength, equals crappy OTA viewing.
Years ago I was looking to purchase Channel 8 in Nashville. They had a DTV transition channel of 1 megawatt ERP on Channel 40 that they were abandoning to go back to channel 8, ERP of something like 15kW. Dumb idea, considering there were something like 15 cable channel head ends being fed by their UHF facilities. The station GM insisted on going back to Channel 8 because they had history there. I tried to explain that channel 8 is still their virtual channel number facing the viewers, but just he didn't understand.
Ultimately they regretted abandoning their channel 40, because they immediately lost a lot of viewers. Don't think the GM lasted much longer either.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Do you have low band VHF DTV stations in your area?

Just like the AM band, it's worthless for modern technology. The problem has always been for low band VHF is; terrestrial noise. What few remaining stations are in that band all run much lower power because of propagation effects. The noise floor on that band is so high, that stations parked there just don't have enough field strength to get over the noise floor. High noise floor, low field strength, equals crappy OTA viewing.
Years ago I was looking to purchase Channel 8 in Nashville. They had a DTV transition channel of 1 megawatt ERP on Channel 40 that they were abandoning to go back to channel 8, ERP of something like 15kW. Dumb idea, considering there were something like 15 cable channel head ends being fed by their UHF facilities. The station GM insisted on going back to Channel 8 because they had history there. I tried to explain that channel 8 is still their virtual channel number facing the viewers, but just he didn't understand.
Ultimately they regretted abandoning their channel 40, because they immediately lost a lot of viewers. Don't think the GM lasted much longer either.

Actually, no. And now that I think of it, there aren't enough of those that it could be done all over. But VHF is still a problem. Channel 8 in my area moved to Channel 8. A lot of people complained they couldn't pick up the signal, including me. Fortunately, the UHF channel they had used before the transition was still available.

Low VHF would be good for expanding FM. The problem is everyone who wanted to listen would have to buy new radios, and we've seen how well that works with HD.

 

[101tm]

There’s also the issue of demand, for even FM (not to mention AM) in this case. While I’m a firm believer in having a radio for emergencies, as discussed multiple times on here, to the average listener “radio” means a lot of things. And inside the house or office increasingly, that is next to never an actual AM/FM tuner. It may be a smartphone app (tunein, Audacy, iHeart, SiriusXM, etc), a Sonos, Alexa, smart TV apps, or a computer.

These are devices almost everyone has, and they are perfectly acceptable for most as a “radio”, and if I were to ask most people I know if they listen to local radio outside of the car, most would say yes, but they’re listening on Alexa or on the phone. The traditional radio outside of a tool in an emergency kit is close to dead outside of radio geeks and DX’ers. The DECENT potable radio options have dwindled extremely since I bought my last one in 2012. You have the junk Emerson type ones, or you have the CCRANE ones that cost more. There aren’t really good radios marketed to the average consumer anymore because the demand isn’t there.

I do not believe that radio is dying. But the way people listen to it is changing, and RADIOS are dying.

 

[boombox4]

There’s also the issue of demand, for even FM (not to mention AM) in this case. While I’m a firm believer in having a radio for emergencies, as discussed multiple times on here, to the average listener “radio” means a lot of things. And inside the house or office increasingly, that is next to never an actual AM/FM tuner. It may be a smartphone app (tunein, Audacy, iHeart, SiriusXM, etc), a Sonos, Alexa, smart TV apps, or a computer.

These are devices almost everyone has, and they are perfectly acceptable for most as a “radio”, and if I were to ask most people I know if they listen to local radio outside of the car, most would say yes, but they’re listening on Alexa or on the phone. The traditional radio outside of a tool in an emergency kit is close to dead outside of radio geeks and DX’ers. The DECENT potable radio options have dwindled extremely since I bought my last one in 2012. You have the junk Emerson type ones, or you have the CCRANE ones that cost more. There aren’t really good radios marketed to the average consumer anymore because the demand isn’t there.

I do not believe that radio is dying. But the way people listen to it is changing, and RADIOS are dying.

Sony, Sangean, and Panasonic still market affordable AM/FM radios, some with weather band also, to make them a bit more useful. They're not generally available in stores, but they are available in plentiful supply online, which is where most people shop for non-grocery items anymore.

If and when OTA radio dies, it will be fairly slowly. It's 2022, we're still in a pandemic that gave us a recession, and we just pulled out of a recession a few years previous, and even with radio revenues decreasing since 2005 I can still turn on my radio and hear both bands full of stations.

It will take quite some time for either band, AM or FM, to be half empty, much less dead.

 

[Kelly A]

Sony, Sangean, and Panasonic still market affordable AM/FM radios, some with weather band also, to make them a bit more useful. They're not generally available in stores, but they are available in plentiful supply online, which is where most people shop for non-grocery items anymore.

But who under the age of 50, is even thinking they need a portable radio? Everything they could ever ask for and more, is right there on their smartphone. Oh sure, what about when the cell sites go down during a Russian or Chinese cyber attack? Until that happens, .0001% of U.S. consumers are actively seeking to purchase anything other than the next version of the iPhone.

If and when OTA radio dies, it will be fairly slowly. It's 2022, we're still in a pandemic that gave us a recession.

Really? I don't think we ever hit Recession status by definition during the pandemic. Last one of those was in 2008.

 

[oldradiotapes]

Proud to be part of that 0.0001%!

I have one actual radio in the house. It's a DX-390 permatuned to KQAC, functioning as an alarm clock (used for shortwave maybe once every 2 years or so when my buddy brings half his shack over with him). Virtually all my listening is on IPOD 5.5s with Rockbox and various Muzak disc images and locally-produced jukebox libraries. Even the car doesn't have a functioning tuner.

 

[ZantennaG1]

Proud to be part of that 0.0001%!

Me too. I proudly support local radio!

Really? I don't think we ever hit Recession status by definition during the pandemic. Last one of those was in 2008.

It's official: The Covid recession lasted just two months, the shortest in U.S. history The Covid-19 recession is in the books as the shortest in U.S. history, the National Bureau of Economic Research said Monday. www.cnbc.com Conventionally, a recession is defined as two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth, which this recession met after the first quarter in 2020 fell 5%. But the NBER noted that in normal times, a recession lasts “more than a few months.” ..... The recent downturn had different characteristics and dynamics than prior recessions. Nonetheless, the committee concluded that the unprecedented magnitude of the decline in employment and production, and its broad reach across the entire economy, warranted the designation of this episode as a recession, even though the downturn was briefer than earlier contractions,” the statement added.

What Is A Recession? A recession is a significant decline in economic activity that lasts for months or even years. Experts declare a recession when a nation’s economy experiences negative gross domestic product (GDP), rising levels of unemployment, falling retail sales, and contracting measures of income and manufactur www.forbes.com During a recession, the economy struggles, people lose work, companies make fewer sales and the country’s overall economic output declines. The point where the economy officially falls into a recession depends on a variety of factors. In 1974, economist Julius Shiskin came up with a few rules of thumb to define a recession: The most popular was two consecutive quarters of declining GDP. A healthy economy expands over time, so two quarters in a row of contracting output suggests there are serious underlying problems, according to Shiskin. This definition of a recession became a common standard over the years.

Just ask the hundreds of thousands who are on commission based pay who saw their salary fall because less people are contributing to the economy, not to mention the layoffs. Anyways, yes the 2008 recession is still worse because the entire housing bubble collapsed, but let's put it this way: If someone fell and broke their leg in 2008, and then they were stung by a bee in 2022, does that mean the sting doesn't matter at all? Nonetheless though, radio has fallen on hard times, and it's up to us to help it through. First and foremost, I want it to live, but if AM and FM must die, I would rather it be in peace, instead of thousands of stations turning in because of the pandemic. That's like a gunshot to radio's heart in my opinion.

 

[boombox4]

But who under the age of 50, is even thinking they need a portable radio? Everything they could ever ask for and more, is right there on their smartphone. Oh sure, what about when the cell sites go down during a Russian or Chinese cyber attack? Until that happens, .0001% of U.S. consumers are actively seeking to purchase anything other than the next version of the iPhone.

Really? I don't think we ever hit Recession status by definition during the pandemic. Last one of those was in 2008.

You're right, although I was referring to the availability, as opposed to the demographics of people even being aware of what a portable radio is. I think the lower age limit on knowledge of portable radio's existence as a thing is the highest Millennials, I think the younger Millennials (post smartphone) only think of a radio as something Dad and Mom had in the house. And obviously GenZ and whatever the latest Gen is called know nothing other than the smartphone and perhaps their laptop computer as media devices.

RE: the pandemic recession: I heard referred to as a recession on the radio a few times, and I read in the news a few times as it being referred to as a recession, although -- as we all know -- it was due to the pandemic, and a special case.

In some respects the pandemic recession was worse than 2008 if you look at the raw numbers of unemployed. But the government aid helped people, something that was more difficult to procure for the unemployed after 2008.

 

[oldradiotapes]

Me too. I proudly support local radio!

Did you actually read and understand my entire post before quoting or did you just cherry-pick that one line out of context and disregard the rest? If the latter, as your response appears to indicate, then you totally missed the point I was making.

You see, with my posts, one doesn't just pick-and-choose certain random bits that, at first glance, may seem to affirm your personal ideology. Reading and understanding the entirety of my posts before quoting is the key.

 

[ZantennaG1]

Did you actually read and understand my entire post before quoting or did you just cherry-pick that one line out of context and disregard the rest? If the latter, as your response appears to indicate, then you totally missed the point I was making.

You see, with my posts, one doesn't just pick-and-choose certain random bits that, at first glance, may seem to affirm your personal ideology. Reading and understanding the entirety of my posts before quoting is the key.

Alright, so you did say most of your listening was on Ipods, and your car tuner doesn't work. However, I just wanted to remind you that you replied to this:

Until that happens, .0001% of U.S. consumers are actively seeking to purchase anything other than the next version of the iPhone.

by saying that you was proud to be part of that percentage. I think maybe I got a little tripped up by that reply, and although I saw the whole thing, I felt more that you was saying that you do, in fact, have a tuner in your own house, and you like having it, even if it doesn't get very much "mileage". My bad.

 

[oldradiotapes]

Once the '390 croaks, that's it. No more Potland radio. Good bloody riddance.

For those who will go blue arguing that radio is NOT dead, just come to Arbitrarytron market #51 (DMA #21 last I saw) and have a tune round. You'll change your song pretty quick. :devil:

By the way, (serious question now) I need a new car audio system. I had a component amplifier in another car, that somebody built (not a commercial product AFAIK) that I got at a flea market but it croaked a while ago. I don't mean a trunk unit that you'd drive a subwoofer from to piss your neighbours off at 2 AM. Basically this was a stereo amplifier (no built-in tuner) with some TRS line inputs and an RCA pair, a selector and volume/low-cut/high-cut controls, like you'd have in the home, but built to fit into an half-DIN bay in the dashboard. Is this something anybody sells commercially that I can buy somewhere, or am I doomed to either try and dig up a schematic and attempt with likely futility to build one, or just say sod it all and waste money on a full car stereo and just not hook up the aerial which broke off ages ago anyways?

I'd prefer to buy. You DO NOT want to see my mad soldering skillz. Even good old W0AJA/N3PHP would be embarrassed and that's saying a lot.