Ford Reconsiders, Now Keeping AM Radio

[DavidEduardo]

The first 10,000 watt or over station was WJZ New York in 1927, at 30,000 watts. Not sure if it was running that power fulltime. Most stations ran 1000 or less in that era.

Here you have hundreds of station listings going back to the first licences:

https://worldradiohistory.com/Radio_Log_Master_Page.htmhttps://worldradiohistory.com/Radio_Log_Master_Page.htm

Also see

RADEX - Radio Index 1925-1942 Station lists and profiles

Radio Index or "Radex" was published from 1925 until 1942. It contained accurate listings of all station in the US as well as Canda, Mexico and other nations as well as articles about programs, DX and reception. published through the 1987 with a review of the year's programming, cultural and...

worldradiohistory.com

 

[DavidEduardo]

I'm mainly interested in the yearly cost (presuming 24 hour/day 50kW omni operation) as a way to try to get some idea of the cost/benefit of keeping a few AM stations OTA (benefit is mainly an intangible, how much would an AM signal help people in trouble [provided they have been educated to use AM radio during emergency situations]).

In addition to the power bill, you have the engineering salaries, property tax, maintenance, insurance, etc. But no matter what power an AM is, it needs all of those.

 

[Kelly A]

What if, hypothetically, I were in a car that only allowed for cell-based digital streaming from the Internet, and there were no longer any analog OTA stations to tune into? I wouldn't have been able to hear any news at all! And no cell service means I can't look it up or call anyone either.

You drive a few blocks and miraculously your cell service returns. It's a miracle!

This once again proves my point that when a widespread problem arises that affects the power grid and related infrastructure, cell phones are among the first to go offline. Had this been an emergency (an evacuation from a wildfire, say), how would anyone be able to get any information? I got lucky and still have power, so I can look such things up while at home, but what if my power was out, as it is for the majority of the city a couple miles west? Without power, their computers and WiFi are probably out. Cell service is out too evidently, so what's left?

And how was announcing a power outage that affected your neighborhood help you after? Was there constant updates over the radio like the local utility website? Power is out in my neighborhood?? Duh, I'm sitting in the dark... Good to know.

 

[Kelly A]

In addition to the power bill, you have the engineering salaries, property tax, maintenance, insurance, etc. But no matter what power an AM is, it needs all of those.

And don't forget; people to go on the air. You can have the best AM signal in the area, but if that station is not locally-staffed, running syndicated programming, what good does that signal do? And if people in the area don't have portable radios with fresh batteries, what good does that signal do?
That's right, specially branded radios will be dropped via helicopter onto hapless citizens below. Great plan eh?

 

[michael hagerty]

Sorry to dig up an older thread, but this anecdote I have underlines perfectly why radio is so important (disregard AM vs FM for a moment, as for the purposes of this post, they're both equal):

So, I'm driving home today, and I turn on the radio to KCBS (I listened on AM, but FM probably would've worked too), which was reporting on a power outage that is affecting areas near my house.

On my way through that area, I see that virtually everything is dark.

Fortunately, my house is unaffected, but guess what? No cell service!

What if, hypothetically, I were in a car that only allowed for cell-based digital streaming from the Internet, and there were no longer any analog OTA stations to tune into? I wouldn't have been able to hear any news at all! And no cell service means I can't look it up or call anyone either.

This once again proves my point that when a widespread problem arises that affects the power grid and related infrastructure, cell phones are among the first to go offline. Had this been an emergency (an evacuation from a wildfire, say), how would anyone be able to get any information? I got lucky and still have power, so I can look such things up while at home, but what if my power was out, as it is for the majority of the city a couple miles west? Without power, their computers and WiFi are probably out. Cell service is out too evidently, so what's left?

Uh-huh....

c

This scenario was such a topic of discussion here in Northern California during the 2019 wildfire season (the first year of PG&E's PSPS---Public Safety Power Shutoffs---cutting power during high winds to avoid live wires coming down on dry brush) that KXTV, the local ABC TV affiliate in Sacramento had its "Verify" unit look into it.

What they found is that the CPUC (California Public Utilities Commission) had urged cell providers to install backup power in high-risk locations (those most likely to experience a long period without power). And as of their report---four years ago---most of the major cell providers actually had or were working on generator and backup battery power supplies for their cell sites:

VERIFY: California power outages don't mean your cell service is gone

While it may seem logical that no power equals no cell service, the reality is that cell providers have taken steps to keep service up.

www.abc10.com

Essentials to remember in this conversation:

1. IF Ford had followed through with its original plan to remove AM radios from its new vehicles beginning next year and IF every other automaker had followed suit at the same time, with back-to-back years of record sales, it would have taken 16 and a half years before no one had an AM radio in their vehicle. Given that we've never had two back-to-back record sales years, 25 or more years is probably far more reasonable.

2. NONE of the majors (I'm leaving Tesla out of this mix because who knows what Elon will wake up deciding to do from day to day) had any timetable for the discontinuation of FM from their vehicles.

3. EVERY one of these "what if" scenarios supposes that the state of cellular service will not improve from what it is today. Given the pace of technology, that's a ludicrous supposition.

4. MOST of those scenarios don't even include what KXTV reports cell providers were already doing four years ago.

 

[michael hagerty]

In addition to the power bill, you have the engineering salaries, property tax, maintenance, insurance, etc. But no matter what power an AM is, it needs all of those.

It also needs promotion.

The vast majority of Americans (especially those who NEVER listen to AM radio) will not be walking around mumbling to themselves "If something goes wrong, I need to tune to 640 AM."

Even 60 years ago when AM was close to the only game in town, they felt the need to mark the CONELRAD frequencies on radio dials...



...and back that up with a pretty healthy promotional campaign:



Without promotion---more so today than in the last century---you could have dedicated 50kw AM signals staffed and providing life-saving information in an emergency---that millions, possibly most, Americans would never hear.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

...and a great signal that covers ND. Do they still play Oldies on the weekend? That's something I would like to see more of these News/Talk outlets do in the evening and weekend.

Agreed. I'm in Pittsburgh and I listen to Brucie every week on WABC. Comes in pretty good here once the sun sets. Sadly, this time of the year, he's pretty much done when that happens. It's a really fantastic salute to WABC's past.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

There was a time when young people LOVED the programming on AM radio. But it was all they had at the time. When they discovered that they could get the same music on FM, they left. Maybe not immediately. But over the period of about five years, the audience transitioned from AM to FM. The AM programmers did everything they could to keep people listening to AM, and they left. Even the DJs left for FM. So you can't expect that young people today, with all the choices they have, will go back to a technology that their parents left 50 years ago. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Especially when radio companies are doing everything they can to make that programming available on either an FM simulcast or an FM-HD or streaming. There is no exclusive anymore.

Part of why people left AM for FM in the 70s was that a lot of the big AM stations were rigidly top-40. Trying to figure out how to successfully do a traditional top-40 format in the 70s the way music tastes were splintering was difficult. You had FM stations with jocks that could play whatever they wanted and a lot of rock groups got a lot of airplay on FM sticks that hadn't on AM because they didn't have a top-40 single (Led Zeppelin, for example).

I've talked to a ton of people who made the transition from AM to FM in the 70s and I don't really ever hear anything about sound quality. It was usually because that's where the music they wanted to hear (rock) was being played. And then the AMs flipped to talk formats because the top-40 thing didn't go well. A lot of young FM stations came in and wiped the proverbial floor with the "old guard" who were mostly AM.

Take Pittsburgh. KQV was THE place for music from the late-50s until the early 70s. In '73, one of the other AMs in town flipped to top-40 and did it better than KQV did at that point. KQV was struggling to adapt to changing music trends in the early 70s. Much better. And KQV had ABC behind it. Within two years they were a full-time news station.

So I don't think it's just the fact that it's AM. The real problem is that programming young people would be interested in hasn't been on AM in half a century. Even in the late-70s, teenage guys wanted rock. And that wasn't getting played on the top-40 AMs.

 

[TheBigA]

Fortunately, my house is unaffected, but guess what? No cell service!

When you say "no cell service" do you mean for your specific carrier or for everyone? It's rare that all cell service in all areas are affected. By definition, cells are small, contained service areas. So perhaps AT&T had a service problem in your specific area, but it's fine in the rest of the city. Or if you have Verizon, it might be unaffected. If your area had a disaster and one cell company was affected, FEMA has the ability to over-ride exclusivity and allow your phone to roam for no fee.

 

[AMRadioGuy]

And especially after the loudness wars, people began to value dynamics over pure loudness, so a more dynamic sounding station, even if it's a bit quieter, would sound better, and attract more listeners, I'd suppose?

c

Nope. "After the loudness wars?" I wasn't aware they ended. Maybe on radio, but in some ways that wouldn't matter because of how compressed and limited to death music is now. We are very much still in the loudness wars, at least as far as new music (and reissues of "remastered" old music) is concerned.

 

[Kelly A]

Part of why people left AM for FM in the 70s was that a lot of the big AM stations were rigidly top-40. Trying to figure out how to successfully do a traditional top-40 format in the 70s the way music tastes were splintering was difficult. You had FM stations with jocks that could play whatever they wanted and a lot of rock groups got a lot of airplay on FM sticks that hadn't on AM because they didn't have a top-40 single (Led Zeppelin, for example).

I've talked to a ton of people who made the transition from AM to FM in the 70s and I don't really ever hear anything about sound quality.

Speaking with purely anecdotal data as you, I recall a lot of listeners moving to FM exactly because of the difference was quality, and stereo. Just the noise floor alone, was a major contributor.

So I don't think it's just the fact that it's AM. The real problem is that programming young people would be interested in hasn't been on AM in half a century. Even in the late-70s, teenage guys wanted rock. And that wasn't getting played on the top-40 AMs.

Considering streaming now, AM is technically inferior quality to everything else.

 

[TheBigA]

Part of why people left AM for FM in the 70s was that a lot of the big AM stations were rigidly top-40.

Actually that's not true. In NYC, for example, there were only two or three Top 40 stations.

You had FM stations with jocks that could play whatever they wanted and a lot of rock groups got a lot of airplay on FM sticks that hadn't on AM because they didn't have a top-40 single (Led Zeppelin, for example).

Led Zepplin actually had several Top 40 singles. The highest charting was the Top 5 song Whole Lotta Love. There were FM rock stations, but they appealed to a narrow group of people, mostly men in their 20s. While the other stations reached a broader range of listeners. So perhaps you & your friends fit in that narrow group of men in their 20s.

So I don't think it's just the fact that it's AM. The real problem is that programming young people would be interested in hasn't been on AM in half a century. Even in the late-70s, teenage guys wanted rock. And that wasn't getting played on the top-40 AMs.

AM programmers tried everything they could to keep their audiences from leaving for FM. They added more rock songs, and some AMs went all rock. But this was at a time when the quality of recording had improved, young people were buying home stereos, and listening to narrow bandwidth mono AM with all the noise and static on a home stereo just didn't sound as good as FM. Plus you could get everything you would want on FM, including Top 40. As Steely Dan said in their song FM: No static at all.

 

[michael hagerty]

I've talked to a ton of people who made the transition from AM to FM in the 70s and I don't really ever hear anything about sound quality. It was usually because that's where the music they wanted to hear (rock) was being played.

There are markets (among them Los Angeles) where repeated attempts were made to play rock on AM. KRLA from 1971 to 1973, KDAY from 1971 to 1974, KROQ from 1972 to 1974 and KHJ in 1978.

All failed and the primary response was "why would I listen to AM when I can hear the same music in better quality on FM?"

 

[AMRadioGuy]

There are markets (among them Los Angeles) where repeated attempts were made to play rock on AM. KRLA from 1971 to 1973, KDAY from 1971 to 1974, KROQ from 1972 to 1974 and KHJ in 1978.

All failed and the primary response was "why would I listen to AM when I can hear the same music in better quality on FM?"

Wasn't aware of that - I stand corrected!

 

[kfbkfb]

Of course, power loss is only one of the things that can disrupt the cell phone system - if the cell towers are damaged - tower knocked down/burned down - antenna and/or power connection damaged by flying debris - repair time can be weeks/months/never for a given damaged cell tower.

Cell signals are weak by definition, if a cell tower many miles away from a damaged area is working perfectly, weak signals won't be very useful in trying to make/receive calls using it.

My cost of operation (24 hour 50kW) question is related to the idea of providing some sort of subsidy (either part of the DHS budget or a small extra charge on cell phone bills) to pay for enough AM stations to try to mostly cover the USA with a receivable signal.


Kirk Bayne

 

[TheBigA]

There are markets (among them Los Angeles) where repeated attempts were made to play rock on AM. KRLA from 1971 to 1973, KDAY from 1971 to 1974, KROQ from 1972 to 1974 and KHJ in 1978.

In New York, WNBC hired Bob Pittman as PD in 1977, and he added a lot of rock music to the format. Of course, Bob would later go on to launch a rock based TV channel called MTV.

 

[TheBigA]

Of course, power loss is only one of the things that can disrupt the cell phone system - if the cell towers are damaged - tower knocked down/burned down - antenna and/or power connection damaged by flying debris - repair time can be weeks/months/never for a given damaged cell tower.

All those same things can affect AM radio towers. One of the big concerns during the LA fires a few years ago was that the flames would reach the antenna farm on top of Mount Wilson.

Cell signals are weak by definition, if a cell tower many miles away from a damaged area is working perfectly, weak signals won't be very useful in trying to make/receive calls using it.

One of FEMA's top priorities is making sure cell service is operating.

 

[michael hagerty]

You have an entire generation that has grown up with (along with old guys like me who have adapted to) the concept of "push notification". We no longer go in search of information via archaic technology.

Saturday, to escape the heat (109 in Sacramento), my wife and I drove to Alameda, on the San Francisco Bay. I used OpenTable to book lunch at Trader Vic's in Emeryville.

Using Apple Maps even though I knew where we were going, I was able to get continuously updated ETAs and found that we were going to end up there an hour early. I said "Siri, call Trader Vic's in Emeryville" (the phone number is not in my contacts), and I moved our reservation up.

While at the restaurant, we decided that we'd escape the heat Sunday afternoon by going to see the new Indiana Jones movie at home in Folsom. I found a showtime that worked, reserved the seats and paid for it on Fandango.

All those things replaced the Yellow Pages, directory assistance, not knowing what the traffic was like ten miles ahead of me, the movie listings in the newspaper and showing up extra early at the theater to buy tickets and grab good seats before someone else did.

And again, I'm 67. I didn't grow up with this technology.

There are tens of millions of people who are simply not going to think or remember to tune in AM radio in an emergency. You need to get the information to them in a way they expect on devices they use now or will use in the future.

 

[TheBigA]

There are tens of millions of people who are simply not going to think or remember to tune in AM radio in an emergency. You need to get the information to them in a way they expect on devices they use now or will use in the future.

All that's fine, but in terms of the government, they need to do both push & pull. So broadcast radio is part of the strategy.

This conversation goes back and forth between the obligations of government to serve the entire population, and the way the people use and receive information. Public service means everyone. From the government side, it can't be one or the other. There's this matter of "accommodation." They even have to provide their information in ways that deaf and blind people can also receive it.

 

[michael hagerty]

All that's fine, but in terms of the government, they need to do both push & pull. So broadcast radio is part of the strategy.

Broadcast, yes...for a certain period of time, which will be determined by consumers. But AM---a specifically-created network of 50kw AMs "just in case"?