So what if 800,000- 1,000, 000 Americans over the age of 55 live in Mexico? 27% of America is over the age of 55 and that means there are over 80,000,000 people over 55 years old. That means less than 2% head off to Mexico (and not all those do so for financial reasons). To ignore 80 million sets of ears is just not smart. It may not be the primo demo to ad agencies, but it sure has bucks to spend, to ignore them shows great ignorance.
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AZJoe said:
Very few Americans move away from friends and family and their culture and language unless it is to be able to make it to the end of the month with food on the table. My example was to illustrate that most retirees live on very tight budgets and have scant little disposable income.
But the main point, and the one you are missing, is that if it costs $2 to make a sale, but the margin on the each sale is $1 then each sale costs you $1, instead of making a profit. The more you sell, the more money you lose. That is why advertisers (not agencies) order their agencies to advertise only to age groups where advertising producing a profit.
semoochie said:
Radio can create images, but the image in each person's mind is going to be different. Many products requre a precise and uniform demonstration of the intended use, and generally have proven that live action video is essential to sales...
Theatre of the mind had one defect... it uses the listeners' own life experience to build mental images. My image of the Lone Ranger on the radio is likely different from any other listener's image. This is not what many advertisers seek.
Same goes for appetite appeal... it can not be done on the radio in the manner most advertisers want.
Similarly, legal text and disclaimers can not fit in a 60" spot when they are half a page of fine print!
DE,
You know I respect your opinions, but usually DISAGREE with nearly ALL of them.
Most Consultants need to get their collective noses out of research and psycology books, and get on the streets with the sales department and listeners. They want everyone to listen to them because they're a "consultant". I instead would love to see the consultants LISTEN to the USERS...station personell, owners AND the community. Stop trying to force a square peg in a round whole.
I want a blue car, and the salesman keeps telling me blue is no good, I must have red, no matter what. Blue is wrong, I am wrong, the color MUST be red. That's the way most of us in the industry feel about most consultants. They need to stop looking down their noses and talking down to us. WE'RE the ones in the trenches, they're in the office.
I believe you are so offbase with the economic power of 50-65 year-olds, it's scarry. Also, the power of the spoken word has been PROVEN in study after study to be MORE influential than pictures.
Now, with that said, I believe you are wholly correct, factual, and true in your statement that the "legalese" required in some advertising does NOT lend itself to radio.
You know I respect your opinions, but usually DISAGREE with nearly ALL of them.
Most Consultants need to get their collective noses out of research and psycology books, and get on the streets with the sales department and listeners. They want everyone to listen to them because they're a "consultant". I instead would love to see the consultants LISTEN to the USERS...station personell, owners AND the community. Stop trying to force a square peg in a round whole.
I want a blue car, and the salesman keeps telling me blue is no good, I must have red, no matter what. Blue is wrong, I am wrong, the color MUST be red. That's the way most of us in the industry feel about most consultants. They need to stop looking down their noses and talking down to us. WE'RE the ones in the trenches, they're in the office.
I believe you are so offbase with the economic power of 50-65 year-olds, it's scarry. Also, the power of the spoken word has been PROVEN in study after study to be MORE influential than pictures.
Now, with that said, I believe you are wholly correct, factual, and true in your statement that the "legalese" required in some advertising does NOT lend itself to radio.
According to the US Census Bureau, the population of the United States between 55 and 65 was 29 million in 2004 and will grow to 40 million by 2014. Since the general population growth is .894% (than is less than 1), the percentage between 55 and 65 will account for a larger percentage of the population for quite a long time to come. Advertisers who ignore the demo will lose out to those who recognize the wealth (and disposable income) that exists in the older demos. American business should wake up and recognize where a great deal of their future growth lives.
XTalker said:
The issue still is return on investment on the advertising placed anywhere. Does a dollar's worth of advertising produce more than a dollar's worth of profit (not goods sold, but profit)?
Advertisers do hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars worth of research on who consumes products and services and how much advertising it takes to create a change in brand usage, among other things. One of the things uniformly seen is that it takes more advertising impressions to create trial among older demos, and in most cases there is not a positive return on investment. This is because it takes significantly more impressions to change a long-time consumer than it does to change a younger consumer, on the average.
Add to that the fact that many of the things advertised to older consumers require disclaimers or legal notices (like medications, investments, etc.) that can not be fit in a radio ad, and you can see why most 55+ and particularly 65+ advertising is placed in print, targeted cable and direct mail, not radio.
I stand by my original statement. If you add the 50+ crowd the potential revenue is even greater.
David, you obviously have a great misunderstanding of the 50+ demo! You seem to believe they are all poor, living on social security and taking tons of meds! You might want to explore the real world of those over 50.
David, you obviously have a great misunderstanding of the 50+ demo! You seem to believe they are all poor, living on social security and taking tons of meds! You might want to explore the real world of those over 50.
XTalker said:
The issue here has nothing to do with income levels (the fact that Americans save less than 1% of their net income does blow up the "affluent retirees" idea, though). And I have always talked about 55+, not 50+.
Advertisers do not ask for 55+ or any subset of this (55-64 for example) because they make no money from advertising to this group. In markets where profitability is dependent on agency buys, there is no way to make money from 55+ listening as there are essentially no buys for 55+ by client dictate.
Forget it X,
We want blue, Dave's selling red. You and I get it. The world of radio is just bigger in our world. I have NO problem selling 55-64, or TRUE 55+ for that matter. In fact, we just launched another AM news/talker targeting 35-64 to handle the overflow sales from our main AM. The 35-64 FM Oldies/Classic Hits spits $$.
We want blue, Dave's selling red. You and I get it. The world of radio is just bigger in our world. I have NO problem selling 55-64, or TRUE 55+ for that matter. In fact, we just launched another AM news/talker targeting 35-64 to handle the overflow sales from our main AM. The 35-64 FM Oldies/Classic Hits spits $$.
amfmsw said:
In the larger markets where agency business is critical to profitability, there is no money in 55+. In LA, at the #1 and #2 stations (meaning we will know about all the campaigns that are asking for rates) there were no 55+ buys in the last year. None.
As I have said many times before, in the totally retail driven markets, where advertisers are predominantly retailers, age is not as important as it is to package goods manufacturers, etc.
I know it is a totally different world in markets where whole stations bill what smany of us make in larger markets. There really are two "radios" there... the big transactional business stations, where billing a million or two or three a month is common, and the smaller market facilities where $500 k to $1 million is the range. In a sense, it is really hard to relate from one to the other which is why small, small market broadcasters can't see why programming to 55+ in large markets makes no sense.
Well, my market has retail, as all do. But my market is a Service Econmomy. Totally service driven. And I'll gladly serve the 55 and older as they have the cash and spend freely. Thank you for leaving the whole pie to us who don't think 55 is death.
Go fight with the 12 other signals for the 25-49 crumbs. Let's see now, $3 million cut 12 ways, or $ 1.3 million to the Oldies//News Talk outlet all alone. Who's targeting the wrong age group? It's about the Benjamins.
If it's about prestige with the younger set, you win. go chase 'em.
If it's about finances, done correctlt, the oldies formats win. Does this make sense fellas?
Go fight with the 12 other signals for the 25-49 crumbs. Let's see now, $3 million cut 12 ways, or $ 1.3 million to the Oldies//News Talk outlet all alone. Who's targeting the wrong age group? It's about the Benjamins.
If it's about prestige with the younger set, you win. go chase 'em.
If it's about finances, done correctlt, the oldies formats win. Does this make sense fellas?
J
Julius Leonard Marx
Guest
I think this has been said before, but ....
In markets in which stations directly sell retail accounts, Oldies is still viable.
In markets in which ad agencies buy most of the radio time, it is not.
In markets in which stations directly sell retail accounts, Oldies is still viable.
In markets in which ad agencies buy most of the radio time, it is not.
amfmsw said:
The markets I show as havin around $3 million in billings are Pittsburg, KS, Rocky Mount - Wilson, NC, and Cheyenne, WY. These are markets 296, 297 and 298 in the US in revenue. Cheyenne has 82 thousand population, $2.8 million in bilings and 16 stations in the metro.
As I said, those of us in larger markets are frightened when we see average station billing, gross, as less than one of our morning talents makes. It's anothere world... stations that bill in a year what we bill in 4 or 5 days or so. So it is hard to relate.
Since 30% of all the revenue in radio is found in the top 10 markets alone, there is of course, very little for the small markets. I don't care if the economy is servicing an aloien spaceport... the revenues are tiny.
That is not very many dollars to begin with. I would not know step one of how to run a station like that, and the town would likely drive me batty... when did you say the opera and symphony season began?
Where nearly all the money is made in radio, oldies is barely viable if viable at all as agency business is critical to profitability... one station group I managed in a top 15 market got 95% of its business from agencies. Agencies follow client dictates, or they get fired. Clients do not ask for 55+ with any frequency, if at all.
It's about serving listeners with good programming, and then bein able to sell to advertisers and make a profit. Oldies is not profitable... which is why most such stations have gone to classic hits.
My whole point here is that advertisers need to start asking for the 50 or 55+ demos. There is gold in them thar hills and very few businesses are out to get it! As I said previously, the business who figures it out first will make a fortune!
While the overall population is not saving much of their income for retirement, there are more and more people who are saving and will retire early so they can spend their money. David, get your head out of the sand and accept the fact that ratings based, agency placed advertising is missing the boat!
While the overall population is not saving much of their income for retirement, there are more and more people who are saving and will retire early so they can spend their money. David, get your head out of the sand and accept the fact that ratings based, agency placed advertising is missing the boat!
XTalker said:
Retail is about selling goods from many manufacturers at one location. So, if there is to be a growth of 55-64 targeted advertising, it will start with retail (just as already exists in smaller markets, suburban markets, etc.) because a retailer can satisfy existing brand preferences by carrying multiple product lines.
Package good and product advertising comes from larger companies, not local retail. It involves either maintaining usage or changing usage of products. In this case, 55-64 are out because there is no return on the investment, irrespective of how much income 55-64's have. Brand preferences are more established, and changin them costs too much money to have a profit on the sale.
Only if older consumers are found to be less brand loyal will 55-64 or 55+ be of any interest to major advertisers and they will instruct their agencies to target that age group. For the moment, that is not the case.
When the clients of the agencies see a good return on ad investment in those groups, they will tell the agencies what to do. For the moment, with growing groups like Hispanics wide open for such advertising, we have clients ranging from snacks to Lexus rushing in to target groups that are young, have few brand loyalties established, and who have large CSI numbers.
It's not about savings or income, it is about whether a dollar in advertising creates $5 in sales. In 55+, it does not.
David, you just have your head in the sand! That's OK, thought.
By the way, retail is NOT just a department store. Even the small specialty store (like Oreck vacuums) is retail.
You can go on believing in brand loyalty, and it may very well be true in the older end of the demo, but it is not necessarily true in the trailing edge of the 50+ crowd! This is particularly true with higher end (higher priced) products and services.
I would like to also suggest that success with the demo does not always begin with what you call retail! No, I don't expect a large number of 55 year olds to shop at the Gap, Old Navy, or Steve and Barry's (although I do have a couple of their t-shirts). Of course, those retailers don't advertise in that direction. Is it the chicken or the egg?
Let me suggest you get to know some people in that 50-60 age group. You might learn something that could make you some money one day.
By the way, retail is NOT just a department store. Even the small specialty store (like Oreck vacuums) is retail.
You can go on believing in brand loyalty, and it may very well be true in the older end of the demo, but it is not necessarily true in the trailing edge of the 50+ crowd! This is particularly true with higher end (higher priced) products and services.
I would like to also suggest that success with the demo does not always begin with what you call retail! No, I don't expect a large number of 55 year olds to shop at the Gap, Old Navy, or Steve and Barry's (although I do have a couple of their t-shirts). Of course, those retailers don't advertise in that direction. Is it the chicken or the egg?
Let me suggest you get to know some people in that 50-60 age group. You might learn something that could make you some money one day.
J
Julius Leonard Marx
Guest
This discussion demonstrates the passage of time. I went and looked back at the Oldies and Standards boards. They were having essentially the same discussion more than two years ago (probably earlier than that but posts still up only go back that far). Now this complaint has moved to the Classic Hits board. Next will come Classic Rock and Alternative.
These discussions never get resolved. And the people who complain that they can't find the music they like on the radio any more, still seem unwilling to explore other places to hear that music, like Internet Radio (everybody on this board has Internet access, so they can listen to Internet radio).
PS: "Retail" in the context it is being used here refers to local merchants who buy advertising on local radio stations directly through station sales reps and not any intermediary. Oreck is a national chain and goes through ad agencies.
These discussions never get resolved. And the people who complain that they can't find the music they like on the radio any more, still seem unwilling to explore other places to hear that music, like Internet Radio (everybody on this board has Internet access, so they can listen to Internet radio).
PS: "Retail" in the context it is being used here refers to local merchants who buy advertising on local radio stations directly through station sales reps and not any intermediary. Oreck is a national chain and goes through ad agencies.
He probably does know some ppl in that age bracket as David is a wee bit into his 6th decade of life!!XTalker said:
XTalker said:
As another poster has mentioned, "retail" to a radio station is local direct business, as opposed to that placed by an ad agency.
The reason the distinction is important is that local retail accounts are driven by relationships, results and the (cash) register, Agency accounts are driven by client dictates on target consumers and demographics, and entail a different kind of selling, almost entirely rate and rating based.
I believe what I see in this case, and there are scant few, if any, 55+ agency accounts in radio. This is because it takes more money to make the sale than the sale produces. Until that changes, advertisers will tell their agencies to stay out of 55+, and stations will not pitch 55+ to agencies for accounts that don't want it. We can all hope this will change, but since none of the best marketers promote mass market products to 55+, this is unlikely any time soon.
Those are agency accounts, all of them. They are 100% transactional buys.
There is no money in 55+, since no agency accounts want it. If that changes, radio will react instantly. And I know plenty of people in the 50-60 age group, but find a high percentage of them very rigid in their thinking.
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