Processing clips

[gtomas]

This was never intended for making a purchase decision or actually comparing processors, as I've said up front. The only way to make a purchase decision is to A/B/C processors on your station in the same set-up (preferably at the same time).

The whole point is to hear how processing can be adjusted differently and sound differently and to hear how radio sounds in various markets and even countries. And perhaps some unusual combos, like the ones Mike put up together. For me, it was very interesting to listen to all these clips!

We could be comparing processors, but then everybody would have to record two or three processors used in exactly the same set-up and with the same audio. I made a few comparisons like that, but even then one can argue that the (subjectively) less performing processor is just not adjusted well...

Regarding last few posts if I understood correctly, Stace knows which processors are in question he just wants to hear if we can recognize it. So, this is a game... With a lot of guessing for sure, because you can't get an accurate picture in just a few minutes and two or three songs... Recorded by someone in a market you don't know, without a reference, etc.

Once again, this is not about comparing processors, it's about comparing processing Relax and have fun...


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[stace]

Wow. I feel like I've been smacked on the hands! I believe each processor, has unique characteristics and when set up typically, (which is usually not far from the presets) you can tell what they are.

HITS is using an Optimod 8200

and

MORE is using a Sonic maximiser / Unity 2000i

 

[FFoti1]

Once again, this is not about comparing processors, it's about comparing processing Relax and have fun...

Regards,
Goran Tomas

Understood. My comments were meant as a reminder. It's too easy to make it about the "processors" and not about "processing."

BTW: I have the best relaxation device around. It's an 1/8th scale live steam locomotive. For any of you on the list, in you're ever near N.E. Ohio during the summer months, you're all welcome to visit and "play trains."

www.lakeshorelivesteamers.com

-Frank Foti

 

[Turntable]

True enough Frank, and also other important considerations include the exciter, the impedance load at the signal input to the processor, the antenna reactance, and the signal handling characteristics of the studio to transmitter link, If you are feeding your processing and transmitter over EQ'd lines for instance, then you will need to compensate for those losses in the audio chain. An RF STL will also leave its own signature on the sound. I already mentioned the stuff people put before these boxes including Aphex Compellors, The Arianne series boxes, etc, etc.

This thread is fun, but you can only judge the box based on the settings it is surrounded by and by existing circumstances. Also, sometimes it isn't the number of knobs, but the person who is turning them that makes all the difference..

-A

 

[wgliradio]

I totally disagree with Alan on this point. There are certain signatures in each of the modern processors.. and ESPECIALLY the older ones... that can tip the hat. Even at its most aggressive settings in the limiters, an Omnia will not sound like an Orban and vice versa.... even with extras like the Ariane or Compellor... or even the CRL SPP-800 I had in front of my 8100 in my clip.

Relaxed, that's a tougher sell, but I stand by what the clips revealed. One station was using Orban and the other was using an older Foti box. When you've listened to the same boxes so many times over the years, your ears can tune into audio clues that tip you off most of the time. It is not easy to tune out the Orban sound in an Orban box... even at very relaxed settings the way the processing handles bass will give it away. Mind you I like the Orban sounds, so that's not a knock.

When it comes to the "processing", it is about the "processor" and "user"... but there are certain styles that each designer builds in that give each box a different flavor. If they didn't, we would be discussing which box looks better.

Also, I don't think this is for selling processors. I doubt anyone is looking to put a Urei 1176LN on the air or that they'll be a rush on 8100/CRL combos on Ebay even though I thought it held its own.

 

[littlejohn]

Maybe a better way to state the circumstance is "When you overdo it, different processors tend to come unstuck in different manners". Next time I get up to The Mistake By The Lake, I'll take a ride on that train... if Frank allows Big White Dogs (My source of relaxation and comfort) to ride. (www.doubleringkuvasz.com/images/Oz2.jpg)

 

[Turntable]

I totally disagree with Alan on this point. There are certain signatures in each of the modern processors.. and ESPECIALLY the older ones... that can tip the hat. Even at its most aggressive settings in the limiters, an Omnia will not sound like an Orban and vice versa.... even with extras like the Ariane or Compellor... or even the CRL SPP-800 I had in front of my 8100 in my clip.

Relaxed, that's a tougher sell, but I stand by what the clips revealed. One station was using Orban and the other was using an older Foti box. When you've listened to the same boxes so many times over the years, your ears can tune into audio clues that tip you off most of the time. It is not easy to tune out the Orban sound in an Orban box... even at very relaxed settings the way the processing handles bass will give it away. Mind you I like the Orban sounds, so that's not a knock.

When it comes to the "processing", it is about the "processor" and "user"... but there are certain styles that each designer builds in that give each box a different flavor. If they didn't, we would be discussing which box looks better.

Also, I don't think this is for selling processors. I doubt anyone is looking to put a Urei 1176LN on the air or that they'll be a rush on 8100/CRL combos on Ebay even though I thought it held its own.

I am right. Although I enjoy this thread and I enjoy listening to the clips, the transmitter and STL combo make a very big impression on how these boxes perform. Add that to other sidechain gear and stuff people put into the airchain before the box, and you have a very subjective result.

As far as signatures go, yes, you can ballpark what type of processing is being used based on sonic signature... but you can never know for sure. It's just not possible. Again, like I said, it's entertainment purpose only. Totally subjective and not scientific at all. There are too many other variables at play to determine what is 'the best processing'

And again... those variables include:

The type of STL
The encoding of the audio in the stations' computers
The audio card used to feed the chain
Extraneous external devices feeding the box
The settings and presets used including any modifications
The impedance of the exciter input
The signal characteristics of the transmitter in it's current install setting
The bandwidth and reactance of the antenna system
The location of the transmitter plant and its effects on multipath

...these are just a few. Sorry, but I have to agree with Mr. Foti-- although I think he should take a listen to some of the clips. I would really like to hear his input. My samples are clean, using only the best encoding and professional gear fully balanced from tuner to digital. I have no idea what some of the others are using for their encodes... but there is no sound blaster here.

-A

 

[wgliradio]

I'm not talking about the antenna or STL variables, rather your earlier comment about how an Omnia can sound like anything etc etc. Each processor has signature keys you can pick up on to tell what is what, even if the source is bad or any of the other variables you mention.

I agree the overall quality can be affected by the variables you mention in your later post and I agree with you on THAT, but even with poor audio or the other factors, 9 time out of 10 you can still tell if it's Orban-ized or Omnia-ized... at least I can.

Even with the added processors, you can still pick out the brand more often than not.

 

[Turntable]

I agree on some of your points as well. My point here, is that a good box can sound like crap if it is improperly set up.

Here's an example:

As far as I know, Buckley's WDRC in Hartford, CT runs an Aphex 2020 mkII or III. Cumulus' WRKI in Brookfield, CT runs the same processor as a stand-alone unit as far as I know (Pete, chime in on this one if you happen to be passing by) I have posted both clips. Compare the difference if you haven't already. You will find that the very same processor can sound decent or it can sound like mud.

Variables.

 

[FFoti1]

I'm not talking about the antenna or STL variables, rather your earlier comment about how an Omnia can sound like anything etc etc. Each processor has signature keys you can pick up on to tell what is what, even if the source is bad or any of the other variables you mention.

I agree the overall quality can be affected by the variables you mention in your later post and I agree with you on THAT, but even with poor audio or the other factors, 9 time out of 10 you can still tell if it's Orban-ized or Omnia-ized... at least I can.

Even with the added processors, you can still pick out the brand more often than not.

Mike,

I understand what you're trying to say...but...I've read quite a few responses, where I know the guesses were wrong. Why? It has to do with the variables mentioned prior, as well as setup of respected processing chains. That can reflect good, or not so good. Thus, if the dialog is about "processing" with an underlying consideration to the employed "processor," than a poor sounding clip (for whatever reason) puts the product, unfairly, in a bad light.

-Frank Foti

 

[surfdude]

Maybe the FCC should regulate a STANDARD processor and settings ALL stations
must use. Then, it's all about programming content and not hardware.
The listener doesn't care, unless the audio is obviously poor.

I pick the Ominia as the standard. (Frank: looking for that commision check!)

Unless Bob is lurking. Then, I pick the 8100XT.

 

[Turntable]

To all.

Processing is so objective, and subjective, that it is impossible to achirve any kind of agreement on what things should or should not sound like. Frank is right-- you cannot say that an Optimod will outperforn an Omnia box, any more than you can sit there and say a DSPx will outperform, say, an Aphex 2020.

I'll let on and say that I personally prefer the Omnia sound. It's more open sounding and if you were to look at an acquired waveform on a scope or a mod monitor, while listening, you would see that these processors handle the signal with much more dignity, and although highly compressed in most setups, the artifacts are not as noticeable as some other notorious processors.

Truly though, it really isn't the box, but the person who has the password who has the final say. Then that person has to deal with whoever is dictating to them what they want to hear-- there's another fight. I have always said, let the PD be the Program Director, and do their job which is to arrange a playlist and manage the talent. Let the engineer do his job-- as chances are he knows far more than the PD. Let the PD decide what goes on the air, and let the engineer decide how it gets processed.

There are a few different approaches to audio processing as it pertains to broadcasting. One is to have a natural, open sound. The other is to make the processor sing, and give you a signature sound. The latter is a lost art. Digiboxes have made it too easy to just set it and forget it. Throw some junk in front of it when you can't acheive the desired sound...

It's just endless...

-A

 

[wgliradio]

Yes, processing is very subjective. Unlike you, I prefer the Orban sound over Omnia myself.. I think Orban can sound as dense as you want and as open as you want... albeit while still retaining alot of the Orban signature in the former and a little even in the latter. Some may like that, others may not.

The DSP-X is also a favorite because it has a more open sound yet you can couple the bands and create somewhat different signatures. Plus I had some input as to how certain things were done as a beta tester, so a little bit of me is in that box and I am proud of how good it can sound when setup correctly (and because I've seen virtually every software version from dirt, it's easy for me to setup). It's alot of processor for $3000.

I don't hate the sound of the Omnia, I just wish that it would have a slightly different texture in more aggressive settings. I personally don't like it for oldies or classic rock or AM for these reasons, whereas I could probably put an Orban or DSP-X on any format. When you say the Omnia has punch, it is still a much different term than the punch you get from Orban or DSP-X, but it is a punch that, lets face it, is very popular and is well liked.

Just my opinion. And it's these reasons why, I'll say it again, we debate what these boxes sound like. My tastes may not be for everyone. In all of my boxes, my presets are far from the factory.

 

[Turntable]

Yes, processing is very subjective. Unlike you, I prefer the Orban sound over Omnia myself.. I think Orban can sound as dense as you want and as open as you want... albeit while still retaining alot of the Orban signature in the former and a little even in the latter. Some may like that, others may not.

The DSP-X is also a favorite because it has a more open sound yet you can couple the bands and create somewhat different signatures. Plus I had some input as to how certain things were done as a beta tester, so a little bit of me is in that box and I am proud of how good it can sound when setup correctly (and because I've seen virtually every software version from dirt, it's easy for me to setup). It's alot of processor for $3000.

I don't hate the sound of the Omnia, I just wish that it would have a slightly different texture in more aggressive settings. I personally don't like it for oldies or classic rock or AM for these reasons, whereas I could probably put an Orban or DSP-X on any format. When you say the Omnia has punch, it is still a much different term than the punch you get from Orban or DSP-X, but it is a punch that, lets face it, is very popular and is well liked.

Just my opinion. And it's these reasons why, I'll say it again, we debate what these boxes sound like. My tastes may not be for everyone. In all of my boxes, my presets are far from the factory.

I'll agree that the Orban boxes sound better when driven hard, when you want that city grade sound. IMO Foti's Omnia is better for classical, jazz, and community oriented programming where the program material is less agressively processed out of the box and I also believe the Omnias have a wider latitude for recorded material. It's smooth and although a waveform display will show alot of consistency, listening will prove less artifact is present. The boxes are quite suave. They present with dignity and grace. The Orban boxes have a bigger bottom end and also, unfortunately, a grainy, nasty top end, at least the way most I've heard are set up.

There's an old saying... "You can't polish a turd".

Taking a crappy source and cramming it through a processor is iffy at best. If you've ever read any of Frank's engineering editorials, you will know he is 100% right, no matter what our respective preferences may be. The recording industry should take notice. It would benefit them greatly.

-A

 

[tjm_pro]

Great thread. I just spent the last hour or so listening to the processing clips. I agree these clips should be used for a general reference only, not an overall assessment of any one particular box. The best way to determine which processor is best for your situation is to do an A/B comparison, which has already been mentioned a few times. However, I did like checking out the different programming from around the world.

I agree with a previous poster, the Omnia.03T clip sounds good. Mike's Omnia 6 and CRL/Optimod 8100 A/B of "Sail Away" was interesting as well.

 

[wgliradio]

Frank

No doubt. Any clips uploaded that are not of listenable quality I have dismissed. Most are "good enough" to subjectively see how well the processor was adjusted... not how GOOD the processor is.

Nobody is using these clips for any purchasing decisions and none of these clips have changed my mind on any audio processor.

 

[gtomas]

I agree with Mike that you can make an educated guess on what processor is used regardless of the other variables, although admittedly I failed to recognize Orban in one of the Stace's clips. The thing is that each processor's philosophy and design of processing has a much greater impact on audio that any other factor. I think it gets easier to recognize the processor the more varied music is recorded. Slow music or intros won't give you much clues and some songs sounds similar even on various processors. But with more material and longer recordings the processor's signature and "style" inevitably becomes apparent. I said it before and I'll say it again - you can't really make Orban sing like Omnia, or Omnia sing like Orban. If you try, you'd be going against the core idea of the designer and the processor won't "cooperate" nicely. Been there, learned it the hard way, you can't make it work good...

I agree with Alan though, that despite the limited play field within the design, a lot of how the processor does sound on-air depends on how it's adjusted. There are a lot of badly adjusted processors and only a few that are adjusted good... A lot of this is subjective and will certainly vary from market to market, but I belive it's worth to invest the time and effort to get the best sound you can (the only problem is when you spend way too much time on this ).

Regarding processor preferences (not in regards to these clips, but my experience so far) I like the way Orban does FM processing the most. There are some things that it could do better and no processor is perfect, but the overall sound texture and the character of audio on-air are most pleasing to me. That is not to say I don't like other processors and they don't have their strengths.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[wgliradio]

Goran

Thank you. Exactly what I was trying to say. Your point on making an Omnia sound like an Orban would go against how it is designed.... couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[stace]

Humourous how we often cover the same material in different threads, over and over. How many times do we need to say processing is subjective? How many times do we have to say, the box is only as good as it is set?

That doesn't mean to say, like others have said before, each (at least Omnia and Orban) don't have a signature sound, although I believe Orban more so than Omnia. Omnia to me sound more natural, which is nice. But I love the texture Orban adds, particularly to vocals.

I've uploaded a clip from an old Unity 2000i. Now I know for a fact this has been set to a factory pre-set (CHR Friendly), certainly not pushing the box hard. Listen to the distortion of the track. I also know the source is not distorted. Why, if it was all to do with who's twiddling the knobs, would the processor be distorting clean material like this if it's set to a factory preset?

 

[FFoti1]

I've uploaded a clip from an old Unity 2000i. Now I know for a fact this has been set to a factory pre-set (CHR Friendly), certainly not pushing the box hard. Listen to the distortion of the track. I also know the source is not distorted. Why, if it was all to do with who's twiddling the knobs, would the processor be distorting clean material like this if it's set to a factory preset?

Maybe the unit needs to be checked out to make sure that all is working correctly? If it needs service, please contact our Support Dept.

-Frank Foti