Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

[michael hagerty]

And one last question...how does WLNG stand in that ranking against other stations licensed to Long Island?

Well, these are the Long Island stations ahead of it...

WALK, WBLI, WBZO, WBAB, WKJY, WWSK, WSHU, WJVC,

Okay. So 9th. And I'm guessing there aren't that many more stations licensed to Long Island...maybe what? 15 or 18?

Obviously, not being able to throw a listenable signal over all of Long Island is a factor. Still, nothing here indicates that WLNG would win or even do particularly well in a competitive environment as a result of playing (what appears from Rewind's XM forum post to be) every song of the rock era to hit Billboard's Top 40 chart.

So we're still looking for the station that proves that you can win by playing songs that don't test well today. WLNG isn't it.

 

[CTListener]

And here's what WDRC-FM Hartford played between 1 and 2 p.m.:

We Just Disagree--Dave Mason
We Will Rock You/We Are the Champions -- Queen
Wedding Song -- Paul Stookey
Weekend in New England -- Barry Manilow
Welcome Back -- John Sebastian
We're All Alone -- Rita Coolidge
We're an American Band -- Grand Funk Railroad
Werewolves of London -- Warren Zevon
We've Got Tonight -- Bob Seger
We've Only Just Begun -- Carpenters
What a Fool Believes -- Doobie Brothers
What Is Life -- George Harrison

Of course, this was an hour of the annual "Big D, A to Z" post-Christmas playlist blowout -- all the '70s titles in the old hard drive alphabetically. It wound up at 6:56 with David Bowie's "Ziggy Stardust." And I'll let you guess how many -- and which -- of these songs get played during normal programming hours. It's not many, as DRC has really slashed its playlist over the past couple of years.

I'll say Dave Mason, Queen, Grand Funk, Warren Zevon, the Doobies and maybe George Harrison.

Queen, Doobies and John Sebastian, believe it or not. The only Grand Funk that still gets played regularly is "Loco-Motion" and "Bad Time." Harrison is down to "Give Me Love" and "My Sweet Lord," plus "Got My Mind Set On You" with the Wilburys and "Here Comes the Sun" with the Beatles. The Zevon, Mason and Seger tunes used to get fairly regular play, but they're on the discard heap now.

Sebastian surprises me. Have they been playing it all along or did they bring it back when the actor who played Horshack died, the way a lot of stations have been playing "Daydream Believer" since Davy Jones' passing?

Been playing it all along. Back to the normal playlist today. So far the only surprise I've heard is Dylan's "Positively 4th Street," thought that one had been dropped. Otherwise, the usual classic hits under today's definition: "Love Is Like Oxygen," "Everybody Plays the Fool," "Danger Zone," "Burnin' Love," "Lady Marmalade," "Hungry Like the Wolf," "50 Ways to Leave Your Lover." Actually, this represents pretty damn good variety, but with two '60s songs played so far this hour I know I'm not going to be hearing any more, which is kind of depressing. But it's hard to defend 43-plus-year-old music in the face of all the research, alas.

 

[firepoint525]

There are several stiffs that get played to death. In fact, I don't even understand why they were even tested. One is "Get Ready" by the Temps which charted in the low 30's. It's a nice tune, but never a big enough hit to be in an "A" rotation...but there it is. The Rare Earth version was Top 10. Another is the Contours "Do You Love Me". So what, it was in a movie...big deal. It's 2.5 minutes of annoying screaming. There are 30 other higher charting, better selling, smoother sounding and beter produced Motown hits that make a station flow and have forward motion without the harshness. "More Love" by The Miracles come to mind. Same goes for James Brown "I Feel Good" It's a great lunar, but not an "A". Keeping the forward motion and tempo without the abrasiveness was always my goal, wheter it was Soul or Rock. Just an opinion.

I might otherwise agree with you, except for who is still playing it? Even the reissued single is now 25 years old. It came from the More Dirty Dancing album, which was only released because of the popularity of the original album. And I have More Dirty Dancing in my collection, but only because I won it as a radio station prize. I don't think any original songs appeared on the second album, save for some "incidental" music from the movie. All of the original singles came from the first album.

 

[CTListener]

Speaking of movie music, I'm hearing "Afternoon Delight" on DRC-FM right now. I'm pretty sure it wasn't on the regular playlist until Will Ferrell and other members of the "Anchorman" cast sang it. Is this former groaner of a song OK at other classic hits stations as well? I'm curious as to whether "Afternoon Delight" used to get the same sort of negatives from auditorium groups that unplayable songs like "You Light Up My Life" and "Kung Fu Fighting" apparently get, and if so, can movie exposure really turn a disliked song into a liked one?

 

[davideduardo]

YES!!! Exactly David, and respectfully, I'm suggesting those tunes that have been ignored for years be retested.

Stations routinely retest songs that may have failed in the past.

13k trumps 100 in my book,

No, it does not. That is not a random sample of people who use a classic hits station... it is a self selected sample of of oldies addicts. Self-recruiting is not statistically unreliable, it is statistically unusable.

The next auditorium test should include these 100 tunes that may NOW be HITS.

Without knowing the age of the respondents, that is a leap of faith. Remember, if a song is only liked by over 55's, it is a kiss of death to a station that has to pay its bills.

It would be hard to find anyone who grew up East of the Mississippi River over the age of 55 who did not know of, or listen to Musicradio 77WABC. 11 States Daytime coverage, 24 States at night, Canada and the Carribean. In 1969, Rated #9...in Pittsburgh, PA!

While WABC did get daytime listening in CT, NJ, PA and NY, anything else was very spotty, unreliable and essentially just along the shore... like parts of DE or RI.

As to night coverage, it was only reliable in about a 400 mile radius... beyond that not so much. Sure, some kids in places without a Top 40 station listened, but nowhere near everyone did.

As to the Caribbean, the answer is "NO" as there were plenty of stations in the Caribbean Basin on 770 back then... and most of the northern Caribbean does not speak English anyway (WABC was never an eash "catch" in Puerto Rico, even back in the 60's and early 70's, for example).

Speaking of the Northeast thing...that's another big gripe...consultants transplanting/importing research from other cities. NO! Stop it. You're doing your clients a huge disservice. Tampa to Daytona, well, ok. But Not to Philly! Nor Philly to LA.

Philly and LA are big enough to do their own research.

Where stations share research is in "affinity zones" such as I mentioned... Dothan, Tallahassee and Albany, GA for example.

The reason for sharing test data comes when a market is quite small and can not afford regular tests on its own. A single test costs in the vicinity of $30 k to conduct...

 

[davideduardo]

Okay. So 9th. And I'm guessing there aren't that many more stations licensed to Long Island...maybe what? 15 or 18?

10 AM, 19 FMs. Only two of the FMs are Class B stations, and the rest are A's.

Obviously, not being able to throw a listenable signal over all of Long Island is a factor. Still, nothing here indicates that WLNG would win or even do particularly well in a competitive environment as a result of playing (what appears from Rewind's XM forum post to be) every song of the rock era to hit Billboard's Top 40 chart.

It does well, historically, in the far, far eastern part of LI because it is not under the shadow of all the NYC FMs... which don't make it there... and does not even get coverage from the pair of LI B's.

WLNG has averaged about a 0.5 over the first 4 years of PPM, and is a station billing less than $1 million a year. That is respectable for the tiny market that is the Riverhead / Hamptons, but even that is more indicative of the community involvement the station has.

So we're still looking for the station that proves that you can win by playing songs that don't test well today. WLNG isn't it.

Yep.

 

[michael hagerty]

There are several stiffs that get played to death.

If they get played on a station today, then today they are not stiffs.

There are #1 songs that are unplayable today, and there are #20 songs that are.

YES!!! Exactly David, and respectfully, I'm suggesting those tunes that have been ignored for years be retested. Look at that list of 100. There's nothing crazy, off the wall there (except The Cadillacs "Gloria" is just a NorthEast thing). Just fine tuned for the NJ/NY/PA area. A lot of sentimental favorites. One poster accounted for 13,000 voters. I know for a fact multiple votes were thrown out. 13k trumps 100 in my book...

Nothing crazy or off the wall? Explain the Kinks track that never charted making #22.

The WABC tribute site is a wonderful thing. I've been a fan of it for years. But I can tell you that, with only 13,000 unique visitors a month, 1,300 participating in the vote would be fantastic participation, 650 would be more in line with reality and it could be a lot closer to 100 than to 650.

And for the purposes of programming a radio station, 100 likely listeners in the demo beats multiples of that outside the demo....which most people who remember WABC are now.

Again, the Kinks track making #22 among devotees of what was America's tightest playlist should tell you how small that sample was.

 

[oldies76]

So we're still looking for the station that proves that you can win by playing songs that don't test well today. WLNG isn't it.

For a station that's been playing oldies since 1963.....not bad. What's that....50 years?? Good for them, unlike many others who can't even last one or two years w/o changing formats.

They may not be the most highly rated, but longevity, in this case matters more. Play all the hits, people will listen to you.

 

[davideduardo]

They may not be the most highly rated, but longevity, in this case matters more. Play all the hits, people will listen to you.

Actually, when there was a rating for "Riverhead / Hamptons" WLNG consistently was #1 or #2.

Under partner / manager Paul Sidney, the station started in the 60's as a 500 watt daytimer on 1600, and added FM later. They broadcast in mono until a year or so after Mr Sidney's death a few years ago.

But the format was not really the music... it was the community involvement, the constant remotes (including many that were not paid client remotes) and overall presence in the community that made the station so significant.

While I don't think that anyone would say that the music did not matter, the fact is that what did matter most was all the local news and information and even really well done local commercials that informed listeners rather than just hyping businesses.

They could have cut the playlist and nuked the jingles and probably would have done as well... because WLNG was small town radio at its best.

 

[michael hagerty]

So we're still looking for the station that proves that you can win by playing songs that don't test well today. WLNG isn't it.

For a station that's been playing oldies since 1963.....not bad. What's that....50 years?? Good for them, unlike many others who can't even last one or two years w/o changing formats.

They may not be the most highly rated, but longevity, in this case matters more. Play all the hits, people will listen to you.

Look, I'm happy for WLNG. But from David's description, it appears that 'LNG is a small town station focused on and super-serving the furthest reaches of Long Island. A lot of stations in similar situations hold their formats for decades...especially when the ownership doesn't change and when there's no direct competition.

The question that has propelled this thread over several months and 30 pages is a simple one: Are you, Oldies76, right when you say that a station won't hurt itself by playing a broad selection of music based on past chart position instead of current audience research?

And there are only a couple of ways to answer that: Put a broad Classic Hits station up against a well-researched one and see who wins...or take a well-researched station, dump the research, add several thousand titles and see what happens.

WLNG doesn't answer that question.

 

[michael hagerty]

They may not be the most highly rated, but longevity, in this case matters more. Play all the hits, people will listen to you.

Actually, when there was a rating for "Riverhead / Hamptons" WLNG consistently was #1 or #2.

Under partner / manager Paul Sidney, the station started in the 60's as a 500 watt daytimer on 1600, and added FM later. They broadcast in mono until a year or so after Mr Sidney's death a few years ago.

But the format was not really the music... it was the community involvement, the constant remotes (including many that were not paid client remotes) and overall presence in the community that made the station so significant.

While I don't think that anyone would say that the music did not matter, the fact is that what did matter most was all the local news and information and even really well done local commercials that informed listeners rather than just hyping businesses.

They could have cut the playlist and nuked the jingles and probably would have done as well... because WLNG was small town radio at its best.

And they had decades to build it. In an area with few outside listening options. And a sponsor base that I assume leans heavily local.

But could you, today, build a Manhattan equivalent of that, including the kajillion-title library, go head-to-head with CBS-FM and expect ratings in agency-salable demos that equal or beat CBS-FM's? Because that's the question here. Small market stations have always had greater latitude, coming from captive audiences in the truly tiny towns and no direct format competition in cities of 100,000 people or less.

What we need to get to is success in a Top 20 market with a few dozen listenable signals.

 

[CTListener]

They may not be the most highly rated, but longevity, in this case matters more. Play all the hits, people will listen to you.

Actually, when there was a rating for "Riverhead / Hamptons" WLNG consistently was #1 or #2.

Under partner / manager Paul Sidney, the station started in the 60's as a 500 watt daytimer on 1600, and added FM later. They broadcast in mono until a year or so after Mr Sidney's death a few years ago.

But the format was not really the music... it was the community involvement, the constant remotes (including many that were not paid client remotes) and overall presence in the community that made the station so significant.

While I don't think that anyone would say that the music did not matter, the fact is that what did matter most was all the local news and information and even really well done local commercials that informed listeners rather than just hyping businesses.

They could have cut the playlist and nuked the jingles and probably would have done as well... because WLNG was small town radio at its best.

And they had decades to build it. In an area with few outside listening options. And a sponsor base that I assume leans heavily local.

But could you, today, build a Manhattan equivalent of that, including the kajillion-title library, go head-to-head with CBS-FM and expect ratings in agency-salable demos that equal or beat CBS-FM's? Because that's the question here. Small market stations have always had greater latitude, coming from captive audiences in the truly tiny towns and no direct format competition in cities of 100,000 people or less.

What we need to get to is success in a Top 20 market with a few dozen listenable signals.

Well, WROR tried to compete with classic rock WZLX in Boston around 2002 with deeper cuts and an expanded playlist. WZLX responded by focusing and tightening its playlist and smashed 'ROR in the following book. There's nothing to indicate that a huge-playlist oldies/classic hits/classic rock format would ever have success againts a research-backed competitor in any market -- the methodology has become much too precise. Besides, in another five to 10 years, this whole discussion will be moot as most of the listeners who grew up with '60s and '70s pop will have become Madison Avenue poison. Although I'm sure some listeners to the classic hits station of 2023 will be complaining about their hometown station only playing ONE Third Eye Blind track or ONLY three by Alanis Morissette.

 

[oldies76]

The question that has propelled this thread over several months and 30 pages is a simple one: Are you, Oldies76, right when you say that a station won't hurt itself by playing a broad selection of music based on past chart position instead of current audience research?

And there are only a couple of ways to answer that: Put a broad Classic Hits station up against a well-researched one and see who wins...or take a well-researched station, dump the research, add several thousand titles and see what happens.

The problem I see, is that today's audience has been feed the same tested music over classic hits stations for years now (give or take a few songs). This constant push of the same tested music over the years has made the average listener "used to" or only familiar with, this type of tested music. Therefore, any "new" material that is presented usually won't air, because, to them it's foreign, forgotten and unfamiliar, whether or not it's a good song or a hit back in 1977.

It's called over-saturation, a brainwash of sort.

When I host home parties and play songs people have not heard in years, the response is usually, "I have not heard that song in a long time", "who sings that song?" or "that's a good song". I never get complaints or frowns, or early leaving guests due to music selection.

WLNG plays a great selection of music, so does WCBS (on a smaller scale), but there are stations out there that insist on playing the same 500 songs and nothing else and that's what peeves me. And I'm not the only one.

And yes, this thread has lasted 32 pages.....It's a hot topic in this day and age, when many people over 55 are not satisfied with music selection on the radio. Too much repetition and not enough selection are the chief complaints.

 

[michael hagerty]

When I host home parties and play songs people have not heard in years, the response is usually, "I have not heard that song in a long time", "who sings that song?" or "that's a good song". I never get complaints or frowns, or early leaving guests due to music selection.

Well, that would be rude, and presumably the music isn't the only reason they've accepted your invitation.

But people don't worry about being rude to the radio station. They are there for the music they want to hear. And there are a couple dozen alternatives (in most cities) a button push away.

 

[davideduardo]

And yes, this thread has lasted 32 pages.....It's a hot topic in this day and age, when many people over 55 are not satisfied with music selection on the radio. Too much repetition and not enough selection are the chief complaints.

People over 55 who are not satisfied with over the air radio need to look elsewhere. Radio stations will not and can not specifically serve that audience (with the possible exception of small markets where ratings and agency buys are not an issue).

 

[landtuna]

And there are a couple dozen alternatives (in most cities) a button push away.

Is that really true? Just looking around unscientifically I have found, in the Oldies/CH genre anyway, that there are usually only one, sometimes two stations feeding that particular market. Even in the most popular genres there seem to be max of two in each market (unless markets overlap).

At most someone would have but two choices. That's not much.

 

[oldies76]

People over 55 who are not satisfied with over the air radio need to look elsewhere.

I know, just shoe them away, since they have no revelant say about what music they would love to listen to.

Aging baby boomers and many over 45 were the ones alive in the 50's, 60's and 70's, during the first few decades of rock and roll and you cannot even cater to them.

oh well...

 

[landtuna]

People over 55 who are not satisfied with over the air radio need to look elsewhere.

I know, just shoe them away, since they have no revelant say about what music they would love to listen to.

Aging baby boomers and many over 45 were the ones alive in the 50's, 60's and 70's, during the first few decades of rock and roll and you cannot even cater to them.

oh well...

Well said Oldies!

 

[michael hagerty]

And there are a couple dozen alternatives (in most cities) a button push away.

Is that really true? Just looking around unscientifically I have found, in the Oldies/CH genre anyway, that there are usually only one, sometimes two stations feeding that particular market. Even in the most popular genres there seem to be max of two in each market (unless markets overlap).

At most someone would have but two choices. That's not much.

Well, most people have two or three stations they share listening among.

I'm a bit out of the demo (at 56) but I have younger-skewing tastes, so:

I'm in Phoenix. Let's say I'm listening to KOOL-FM and they play a song I don't like. My next stop would probably be The Peak, a "Jack" style "we play what we want" classic hits station. If I don't like what they're playing, either, there's KSLX, which is Classic Rock, but pretty hit-oriented. KDKB runs about 40% classic rock, so I might hear something I like there. After that, KESZ is at least 40% gold, Mix 96.9 goes back to the 80s (giving them some common ground with KOOL). There's also Eva and Mega, 2 Old School R&B stations where I can hear 60s and 70s soul and funk hits that crossed over to Top 40. And, if I want to use the "AM" button, there's a little daytimer at 1440 that plays oldies, and KOY's standards format has broadened to include softer 70s and 80s hits.

That's 10 alternatives that play some songs I like if I like KOOL. God help KOOL if I like what I hear on some of them and stay awhile, or decide to check them all out before going back to KOOL (which better not be playing something I don't like when I finally do).

Now, all that is if I'm a narrow kind of guy who just wants my 60s-80s hit fix. But maybe I like NPR. I could get lost there for hours. Maybe I like Country, too. There are three more stations that play it. I have teenagers. A lot of their music doesn't suck and hits have gotten catchy and accessible again. There are five stations playing some blend of CHR.

Maybe I like some talk shows. Maybe I also like Classical. Maybe I'm bi-lingual. Whole lotta radio en Espanol.

And I only have an hour a day, round-trip, in the car. If I punch out of KOOL with that many alternatives (and we haven't talked about HD channels, Sirius or my iPod), it's real unlikely I'll be back to them the same day.

 

[landtuna]

Well, most people have two or three stations they share listening among.

I'm a bit out of the demo (at 56) but I have younger-skewing tastes, so:

That was an entertaining commute. I don't commute any longer but I do "drive" the PC most mornings and like to have some accompaniment.

I'm in Phoenix. Let's say I'm listening to KOOL-FM and they play a song I don't like. My next stop would probably be The Peak, a "Jack" style "we play what we want" classic hits station.

I usually begin with KOOL as well, particularly if the morning show is still in progress. Assuming they really screw up and play something younger than 1984ish I proceed directly to KSLX. I'm not a big fan of their morning guy so will hang around while the music is decent. If it fails or they break for one of their looooong stop sets I will then head for the Internet.

I can't stand KEZ (analog), KDKB, Eva, Jack, Mega, KNIX, KMLE (Country music sounds like one large song to me) and can't receive either KAZG or KOY (unfortunately for both because I like their playlists, generally).

First choice on the 'Net is KODS, Reno and backup is KOSF, SF.

If I'm in the car it is KEZ-HD2 then KOOL-HD2. The car has XM but it is never used. Should both HD2's be out of service there is my flash drive with 8GB of music and a slightly smaller amount of great tunes on DVD.

So, in a market loaded with stations of all sorts it comes down to three possibles (for Oldies/CH) - two FM analogs and one FM HD2. For most people that would be only two options since HD is almost a non-entity.

And, if I think back to my youth it has almost always been two choices. In the 50's Tucson had KTKT and KAIR (both T-40). In the 60's San Francisco had KYA and KEWB (and when KEWB flipped KGO-FM came along). In 70's Noo Yawk it was WABC and WOR-FM. Back in 80's Phoenix it was KOOL-FM with KOPA as backup. 90's was KOOL-FM and KSLX-FM.

Seems like it's always been two.