Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

[CTListener]

You have a station that plays "Suavecito" there? Lucky you!

 

[landtuna]

We live in the same city. There may only be two you're willing to listen to, but as I outlined in detail, there are 10 analog signals that play hit records from the 60s-80s (KDKB, KOOL, EVA, MIX, The Peak, KESZ, KSLX, Mega, KOY and KAZG). f you're programming KOOL and play "Disco Duck", and I tune into The Peak and hear "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" or EVA and they're playing "Suavecito", they win. And they might hold me with the next record they play. And the next. It might be 10 songs before they make me hit the button and go somewhere else.

I understand what you are saying. My point is simply that the other stations you mention don't play enough of the songs I like. They don't necessarily play songs that would make me switch but they aren't in my personal mainstream either.

And actually.....I would like to hear "Disco Duck" every now and then. That's one of the surprises that real radio can provide that I miss on my private library.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

And yes, this thread has lasted 32 pages.....It's a hot topic in this day and age, when many people over 55 are not satisfied with music selection on the radio. Too much repetition and not enough selection are the chief complaints.

People over 55 who are not satisfied with over the air radio need to look elsewhere. Radio stations will not and can not specifically serve that audience (with the possible exception of small markets where ratings and agency buys are not an issue).

This is about the worst advice you could possibly give out. Yes listeners do expect (and should) things like commercials and songs they don't entirely love, but you act like we are asking for an oldies station that plays nothing but Johnny Mathis and "You Light Up My Life" - which is far from it. I'd listen far more if a few bones were thrown in daily, and I don't mean deep obscurities.

To tell the most loyal radio audience (those 55 +, which BTW I'm not a member of but still an "oldies" advocate) that they should look elsewhere is moronic. First, your ad research says that older generations can't change their ways, and now you say they MUST if they want entertainment. No wonder radio is threatened by other outside forces. Which makes me question, I don't use Pandora but would like to know if someone was to use a song that gets OVERDONE on Classic Hits Radio (say "Hotel California" or "Black Magic Woman" - both button pushers for me) how does Pandora respond? What things does it include in the set? How deep? And is there any way to know what songs are skipped on a service like that in comparisons to others?

 

[michael hagerty]

We live in the same city. There may only be two you're willing to listen to, but as I outlined in detail, there are 10 analog signals that play hit records from the 60s-80s (KDKB, KOOL, EVA, MIX, The Peak, KESZ, KSLX, Mega, KOY and KAZG). f you're programming KOOL and play "Disco Duck", and I tune into The Peak and hear "Everybody Wants To Rule The World" or EVA and they're playing "Suavecito", they win. And they might hold me with the next record they play. And the next. It might be 10 songs before they make me hit the button and go somewhere else.

I understand what you are saying. My point is simply that the other stations you mention don't play enough of the songs I like. They don't necessarily play songs that would make me switch but they aren't in my personal mainstream either.

And actually.....I would like to hear "Disco Duck" every now and then. That's one of the surprises that real radio can provide that I miss on my private library.

And....I'm wrong. It's 9. When I wasn't looking, Mix became "90s to Now". I like a lot of the music, and I suppose some of the desired demo would, but my hypothesis was stations that play 60s-80s hits as part of their format.

On a quick scan of their online playlists, here's what I found as far as other stations playing 60s-80s hits within the past hour:

KDKB:

ZZ Top: Legs
AC/DC: Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
Led Zeppelin: Black Dog


KYOT (Eva 95.5):

Luther Vandross: Never Too Much
Frankie Smith: Double Dutch Bus
Sister Sledge: We Are Family
Zapp: Do Wa Ditty
Janet Jackson: Miss You Much
Barry White: Never Never Gonna Give You Up
Foxy: Get Off
Ben E. King: Stand By Me


KPKX (The Peak):

Aretha Franklin: Freeway Of Love
Blondie: Heart Of Glass
REM: The One I Love
Queen/David Bowie: Under Pressure
Devo: Whip It
Romantics: What I Like About You
Crowded House: Don't Dream It's Over
Mr. Mister: Kyrie


KESZ (KEZ 99.9):

Kenny Loggins: Footloose
Bill Medley/Jennifer Warnes: (I've Had) The Time Of My Life
Roberta Flack: Feel Like Makin' Love
Gin Blossoms: Hey Jealousy


KSLX:

Doors: Riders On The Storm
Cars: Just What I Needed
Bill Withers: Lean On Me
Fleetwood Mac: Gypsy
James Gang: Walk Away
Supertramp: Take The Long Way Home
Rolling Stones: Ruby Tuesday


I can't find an online playlist for Mega, but they're playing Michael Jackson's "Human Nature" right now.

Doesn't look like KAZG has an online playlist either.

KOY:

Kenny Rogers/Dolly Parton: Islands In The Stream
Gordon Lightfoot: Carefree Highway
Glen Campbell: By The Time I Get To Phoenix
Stevie Wonder: I Just Called To Say I Love You
Crosby, Stills & Nash: Teach Your Children
Chris Montez: Call Me
Sam Cooke: Cupid


And, just for completeness, here's what KOOL played in that hour:

Eagles: Witchy Woman
Neil Diamond: Cracklin' Rosie
Main Ingredient: Everybody Plays The Fool
Orleans: Still The One
Phil Collins/Phillip Bailey: Easy Lover
Bob Seger: Old Time Rock and Roll
Martha & The Vandellas: Nowhere To Run
Kenny Loggins/Stevie Nicks: Whenever I Call You Friend
OMD: If You Leave
Paul McCartney & Wings: Jet
Brothers Johnson: Strawberry Letter 23
Robert Palmer: Addicted To Love
Queen: You're My Best Friend


Not anything there likely to make me push the button (they're well-resarched), but plenty of alternatives on 8 other analog signals in that one hour had there been.

 

[landtuna]

Not anything there likely to make me push the button (they're well-resarched), but plenty of alternatives on 8 other analog signals in that one hour had there been.

A whole bunch of button-pushers there for me. KOY comes closest (and probably wouldn't have pushed their button) but unfortunately their signal is buried in static down at the hacienda.

 

[michael hagerty]

Which makes me question, I don't use Pandora but would like to know if someone was to use a song that gets OVERDONE on Classic Hits Radio (say "Hotel California" or "Black Magic Woman" - both button pushers for me) how does Pandora respond? What things does it include in the set? How deep? And is there any way to know what songs are skipped on a service like that in comparisons to others?

Pandora's music licensing arrangement prohibits it from playing a specific song you ask for (at least right away), so if you create a station based on "Black Magic Woman", it will look for songs that are sonically and rhythmically compatible, and start there. With any luck (it varies), "Black Magic Woman" will show up within an hour.

I went ahead and created one for "Black Magic Woman" just to see what would happen. It's starting with Steely Dan's "Do It Again".

How it responds from there on out depends a lot on whether I give a thumbs up or thumbs down or no response to "Do It Again". I like it and it has a latin-ish beat so I'm going to thumbs-up it. I'll only thumbs-up Santana tracks or songs with that kind of feel. I'll jot down some notes and share what Pandora played in an hour or so.

As far as what they don't play...that's tough. Their music licensing deal gives them access to far fewer tracks than, say, iTunes...and I've found that just because Pandora has some tracks from an album does not mean they have ALL the tracks from an album.

 

[michael hagerty]

Not anything there likely to make me push the button (they're well-resarched), but plenty of alternatives on 8 other analog signals in that one hour had there been.

A whole bunch of button-pushers there for me. KOY comes closest (and probably wouldn't have pushed their button) but unfortunately their signal is buried in static down at the hacienda.

They stream online. And when you're in their strong signal area, their HD is glorious.

 

[michael hagerty]

I'm guessing---and I'm not the guesser I used to be---that if a radio station started playing the 1950s hits again, a new generation of young people would discover, and enjoy, the songs...and we who are older would enjoy re-hearing the songs. Someday there might even be a "Music Of Your Life"-type network that plays the early rock'n'roll and r&b. I can only hope.

I'm guessing that about as many young people would be attracted by that as young people 35 years ago were motivated to run out and buy Rudy Vallee 78s when MOYL brought that music back to radio.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Michael but generation 1 & 2 rock/pop was an entirely different breed than the crooning of Rudy Vallee and Bing Crosby.

I remember a company Christmas party in the 70's during the Disco era. Instead of the current Disco hits the company brought in a live Big Band and it was a tremendous hit with the employees - most of whom were under 40 years of age. Both Disco and Big Band were essentially dance music and so could replace each other to a degree. Not so with crooners and RnR.

Couple of things to keep in mind there....

People in their 30s during the 70s were born around the time of those Big Band hits. Their parents probably listened to them at home when the kids were younger.

There was a 30-year gap between the 40s and the 70s.

But between the 50s and now, that's 60 years. Not only weren't today's 30-somethings born close to that time (let's just center on 35 year olds), but it's entirely possible their parents consider that music before their time (I have high school classmates whose children are turning 40 this year...admittedly those were the early starters, but five years later, a fair number of them were having their first kids). Those guys consider Steely Dan and Supertramp their parents' music.


Chilling but true: When "Music Of Your Life", revolutionary at the time for bringing back crooner and big band music to radio, first aired in 1978, the oldest record they played was from 1931.

Go back that far today, and you'll only get to 1966.

 

[michael hagerty]

You have a station that plays "Suavecito" there? Lucky you!

With the Hispanic population percentage in Phoenix, they'd be crazy not to.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

WOW, Phoenix does better than Chicago. There's really only 2 "real" classic hit stations, 2 "confused" 90's/today with 70's/80's every now and then, and an "Urban Oldies" on weekends (where they go deep, and are #1 FM in town always!!!!!).

Michael:
Anyways, I appreciate your Pandora "experiment". We're so far apart on this arguement but I appreciate your willingness to bring some sort of evidence to the party.

 

[michael hagerty]

Biondi4Mayor:

Okay. Here's what Pandora gave me when I set up a station using Santana's "Black Magic Woman" as the seed. First hour:

Steely Dan: Do It Again
Bob Marley: Three Little Birds
Rolling Stones: Paint It Black
Santana: Oye Como Va
Eagles: Hotel California (live acoustic version)
America: A Horse With No Name
Creedence Clearwater Revival: Have You Ever Seen The Rain
Santana: Put Your Lights On
Eric Clapton: Layla (unplugged version)
Paul Green: Black Magic Woman (from "Rock School" Soundtrack)
Bill Withers: Ain't No Sunshine
Santana: Blues Latino
Beatles: Come Together

As I noted in the first post, I gave thumbs up to "Do It Again" and the other Santana tracks, and left the rest alone...no thumbs up or down. Obviously, it resulted in fairly safe choices (with one or two surprises) from big artists of the 70s (60s in the case of the Beatles). Had I used the thumbs up or down more agressively, the list would have been different (thumbs down kills the song immediately and another plays).

Also, you can add variety by suggesting more songs and artists to the same station. Fine-tuning a Pandora station to the point where it really is playing what you want is a lot of work. I'm so eclectic I usually confuse it. I fully expect to see a headline in the Arizona Republic: "Local Man Breaks Pandora".

 

[michael hagerty]

Michael:
Anyways, I appreciate your Pandora "experiment". We're so far apart on this arguement but I appreciate your willingness to bring some sort of evidence to the party.

Hey, we all love radio. That's what we have in common and why we spend the time we do on this board.

 

[michael hagerty]

There are several stiffs that get played to death.

If they get played on a station today, then today they are not stiffs.

There are #1 songs that are unplayable today, and there are #20 songs that are.

YES!!! Exactly David, and respectfully, I'm suggesting those tunes that have been ignored for years be retested. Look at that list of 100. There's nothing crazy, off the wall there (except The Cadillacs "Gloria" is just a NorthEast thing). Just fine tuned for the NJ/NY/PA area. A lot of sentimental favorites. One poster accounted for 13,000 voters. I know for a fact multiple votes were thrown out. 13k trumps 100 in my book...

Nothing crazy or off the wall? Explain the Kinks track that never charted making #22.

The WABC tribute site is a wonderful thing. I've been a fan of it for years. But I can tell you that, with only 13,000 unique visitors a month, 1,300 participating in the vote would be fantastic participation, 650 would be more in line with reality and it could be a lot closer to 100 than to 650.

And for the purposes of programming a radio station, 100 likely listeners in the demo beats multiples of that outside the demo....which most people who remember WABC are now.

Again, the Kinks track making #22 among devotees of what was America's tightest playlist should tell you how small that sample was.

Okay, I am prepared to walk back my skepticism of the WABC vote.

I don't spend a lot of time watching television.

I did not know that Ray Davies and Damon Albam performed a brilliant and moving version of Waterloo Sunset as part of the closing ceremonies for last summer's Olympics in London. It was televised worldwide.

It was televised here. I didn't see it.

I was wrong. I was ignorant. I'm also posting this on the separate WABC Top 77 thread.

My apologies.

 

[davideduardo]

This is about the worst advice you could possibly give out. Yes listeners do expect (and should) things like commercials and songs they don't entirely love, but you act like we are asking for an oldies station that plays nothing but Johnny Mathis and "You Light Up My Life" - which is far from it. I'd listen far more if a few bones were thrown in daily, and I don't mean deep obscurities.

I'm telling you honestly what the facts of radio life are. If you want deeper and older "oldies" cuts you are not going to find them on radio stations on FM in most parts of the US.

And I told you the reason: by playing that music, stations would demo themselves out of business.

To tell the most loyal radio audience (those 55 +, which BTW I'm not a member of but still an "oldies" advocate) that they should look elsewhere is moronic.

First, I am not a moron. But I am pragmatic.

Again, that music is not going to be played on traditional radio stations. But today there are lots of alternatives, ranging from XM-Sirius to Pandora and a slew of other streams. Or you can roll your own and play it on an iPod or smartphone.

First, your ad research says that older generations can't change their ways, and now you say they MUST if they want entertainment.

You are adding 1 plus 1 and getting 3.14.

Advertisers don't buy against 55+ because it takes too many ads (impressions) to make a sale because older consumers have more established buying patterns thus making the cost per sale too expensive.

Older listeners are familiar with making life changes. They may have had to modify their diet due to age, may have downsized living space after becoming empty-nesters, etc. Saying that older consumers won't make changes is disingenuous. But it takes more convincing to change them... so they are not a good ad target.

And... it's not my research. It's Cokes and P&G's and that of all the other major advertisers who know who their target is and how much it costs to generate sales.

 

[oldies76]

But guess what? They don't care because you, I and everyone else like us will be dead soon enough and there's no future listener base to demand that old music anymore.

Our kids will like some of it and music collectors will hoard it.

 

[landtuna]

People in their 30s during the 70s were born around the time of those Big Band hits. Their parents probably listened to them at home when the kids were younger.

That was me....I turned 30 late in 1974. Big Band was never played in our house when I was a kid. My parents really didn't listen to music although my dad played the guitar and sang to us every evening when we were very young. "Tennessee Waltz" was one of his favs BTW (thank you Patti Page).

There was a 30-year gap between the 40s and the 70s.

And music changed by light years during that time.

Those guys consider Steely Dan and Supertramp their parents' music.

Perhaps I am somewhat unique but it doesn't bother me now and never has that a piece of music belongs to another generation.

Chilling but true: When "Music Of Your Life", revolutionary at the time for bringing back crooner and big band music to radio, first aired in 1978, the oldest record they played was from 1931.

That probably had as much to do with the quality of the recordings than the music itself.

 

[oldies76]

And, just for completeness, here's what KOOL played in that hour:

Eagles: Witchy Woman
Neil Diamond: Cracklin' Rosie
Main Ingredient: Everybody Plays The Fool
Orleans: Still The One
Phil Collins/Phillip Bailey: Easy Lover
Bob Seger: Old Time Rock and Roll
Martha & The Vandellas: Nowhere To Run
Kenny Loggins/Stevie Nicks: Whenever I Call You Friend
OMD: If You Leave
Paul McCartney & Wings: Jet
Brothers Johnson: Strawberry Letter 23
Robert Palmer: Addicted To Love
Queen: You're My Best Friend


Not anything there likely to make me push the button (they're well-resarched), but plenty of alternatives on 8 other analog signals in that one hour had there been.

Queen, Robert Palmer, Kenny Loggins, Eagles, Seger.....all overplayed, button pushers.

You listed the 'Double Dutch Bus" from another station? Now that's a gem worth hearing.

 

[oldies76]

If you want deeper and older "oldies" cuts you are not going to find them on radio stations on FM in most parts of the US.

Many AM's play deeper and older cuts and some FM's which carry weekend specials, play some as well, in larger cities, New York to name one.

 

[davideduardo]

Many AM's play deeper and older cuts and some FM's which carry weekend specials, play some as well, in larger cities, New York to name one.

About 70% of the population lives in the top 100 metros.

There are only around 175 AMs in those 100 markets that cover even 80% of their markets day and night.

In those 100 markets, there are nearly no AMs playing true oldies and those that do are generally deficient if not totally dismal technical facilities.

While a few FMs have some older-music specialty shows, those shows are run at times when radio listening in general is close to non-existent.

"If an oldie is played in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, was the oldie really played?"

 

[oldies76]

"If an oldie is played in the forest and nobody is there to hear it, was the oldie really played?"

I'm sure if your above statement were really true, then CBS-FM would not be featuring a top 20 special every Sunday evening and with a national host. People do listen, just recreational for the weekends.

aahhhh, 359 replies and counting........