SONGS YOU'D LOVE TO HEAR ON KRTH-FM!

[scooty430]

Then why are stations overall losing listeners?

And why do very heavily researched formats like Movin', all the various Stars, KBIG, etc. sometimes tank in the ratings?

Radio is losing listeners at a very slow rate... about 15% over the last 25 years. That is surprisingly little considering all the other entertainment options, ranging from computers and video games and the internet and CDs and now iPods and satellite and such.

All LA formats are "heavily researched." And the Yankees spend more on players than anyone, but don't always win the World Series.

Star was a format that billed in the past among the top 5 or 6 in the market. As the competitive array changed, and music tastes modified, it lost some of its buzz. Seacrest was moved to KIIS, hurting it more. It now has to find a new direction.

KBIG was always the CCU "Wall Of Women" centerpiece, covering 25-54 with equal audience in each 10-year sub-cell. It billed very high, and got great female Hispanic numbers. But changes in music and such required it to modify also.

Movin' was effectively blocked by 92.3 and the people who said they would like such a blend did not come to listen... it was not compelling enough.

All this are issues of a changing market, enhanced by the fact that you do not have anything but the useless 12+ numbers to base your opinions on. None of these are research issues. Research is like a power saw: in the hands of someone skilled, very useful... in the hands of a chimpanzee, very dangterous.

KLVE and KSCA are highly researched, too. And they are, consitently, #1 and #2 in 25-54 and have been most of the time since 1995 and 1997 respectively. Good research, well applied and interpreted.

So why didn't Movin', Star, and KBIG look at the research and make a move? Either the research was off (and is still not working) or they chose to ignore it.

Or why did WCBS switch to JACK. I imagine they researched the pants off that one. Total failure. Yet a person acting on gut would never have made that move.

The problem with research is......who do they poll? People willing to....

- not screen their phone calls against unsolicited phone calls
- give up an evening sitting answering questions for 2 hours! Yawn.
- or in the case of PPM, wear a monitoring device 24/7.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

I don't think these guys listen too much. They look at spreadsheets and such.

Any music fan can listen to the two stations and instantly know WCBS is playing more songs. Perhaps in a given week KRTH has a higher count or whatever. But KRTH tends to play the same songs week after week. WCBS plays different songs each week, each month. It's a bigger, broader list.

Lets try this. KRTH has 503 songs in regular rotation. WCBS-FM has 488 (including 80's). Does that help you?

 

[oldies76]

Scooty430..you're on the same page..Nobody will agree here.....

Look at the "Songs Played" tab on WCBS website right now and tell me KRTH lists are the same.They are vastly different, with 50's mixed in today (Roots of Rock n Roll Weekend). KRTH 101 does not do this!!

WCBS has more songs to be played, that were played and to be played!! KRTH has a large list, but repeats it over and over and over, daily for the most part! WCBS does not do that, nearly as frequent! It's a fact..looks at the lists daily and compare them to KRTH..

Why all the technicality about MEDIABASE?? Just look at the playlists!

In the meantime, I'm tuning into the countdown on WCBS to hear the top 20 this week in 1978.

Something that KRTH does not do either!

Yes, every single on WCBS has been tested..that's why they are playing them all...hundreds and hundreds of them, with speciality weekends and countdowns on top of that! Countdowns airing live at the station, not re-runs or Casey Kasem countdowns.

 

[oldies76]

We are talking about the "TOTAL SONGS" available for airplay..not daily or weekly rotation! In other words..the MUSIC LIBRARY of that station and the availability for those songs and hits to be played daily!

Both stations have HUGE libraries..WCBS accesses more of them in between repetition of the common songs.

Scooty..do you have the countdown on....it's airing right now!!

 

[scooty430]

Looking at the responses and the "brilliance" of people who should know better, but continue the same old way of thinking, terrestrial and satellite radio will all toilet out from self indulgence and just plain bad radio. It took more than a fantastic song, but true marketing genius and know how to be successful in broadcasting then or now. It also means the bean counters need to go back to their cubby holes and do what they do best and it isn't with their noses in programming. Only over 60 year old adults listen to Oldies? Do some research. It's that old advertising "rule" about no one over 60 having money to spend on sponsor product that needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into this millenium. It's also hysterical to watch accolades given to stations that receive a 3.6, or a 4, or a 5, 6, 7 or 8 rating point in the Arbitron. Say your station just pulled an 8! Wow! That means 92% of the audience won't listen to you and from the latest trends, KRTH is beginning a little downward spiral from the mediocre rating it had before this trend. With the current programmming team and burocracy at CBS in place, the station doesn't have a chance. The satellite networks are really worse, because they don't have commercials to use as an excuse for losing subscribers and with the money they hemmorage monthly, the merger idea will only make two awfully programmed networks one bigger mess. Where is Drake when you need him?? I think, sitting back and grinning at the business of radio....if there is any left.

So true.

These guys never mention things like.....oh, news articles saying CBS profits were down last year. And mostly due to weakness in their radio division.

Following this, they laid off a whole bunch of workers. Not a sign of a successful business, eh?

Of course, there will be a snappy answer. Along with some condescension and maybe an insult or two.

Anyone know a radio forum with actual radio fans?

 

[scooty430]

Scooty430..you're on the same page..Nobody will agree here.....

Look at the "Songs Played" tab on WCBS website right now and tell me KRTH lists are the same.They are vastly different, with 50's mixed in today (Roots of Rock n Roll Weekend). KRTH 101 does not do this!!

WCBS has more songs to be played, that were played and to be played!! KRTH has a large list, but repeats it over and over and over, daily for the most part! WCBS does not do that, nearly as frequent! It's a fact..looks at the lists daily and compare them to KRTH..

Why all the technicality about MEDIABASE?? Just look at the playlists!

In the meantime, I'm tuning into the countdown on WCBS to hear the top 20 this week in 1978.

Something that KRTH does not do either!

Yes, every single on WCBS has been tested..that's why they are playing them all...hundreds and hundreds of them, with speciality weekends and countdowns on top of that! Countdowns airing live at the station, not re-runs or Casey Kasem countdowns.

The countdowns are well done. They throw in information about each song, and it's very listener-friendly. If it's a local New York hit, they'll talk about how that group was big at the time. You actually learn something listening!

I listen the next day on their "on demand" site so I don't have to listen to the ads Sunday night. Same thing with the Special Guest DJ show, which is sometimes really fantastic.

You can tell the people putting together the countdown show love what they're doing. That makes all the difference.

 

[oldies76]

What WCBS is doing now (countdowns included) is what KRTH did back in the late 70's and 80's.

If KRTH played music now, like they did then, we would not be complaining. Simple as that!

 

[oldies76]

(David Eduardo) You know that when CBS has its famous specialty shows, they are in dayparts when nearly nobody listens either to them or to radio at all. Those CBS specialty shows are intended to reduce the criticisms of the change to mostly 70's music by appearing to play other stuff... you sure bought this little CBS head game big time!!!!
If nobody or few listened to the shows, why are they airing them then??
The Sunday night countdowns already feature "this week" in the 70's or 80's or 60's, so why would they be playing "other stuff". They still play 60's and some late 50's daily..so not all is lost or "criticized"

Just admit it..WCBS has a bigger bank of hits available to play..not just the same 500 songs over and over, like KRTH does.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

Just admit it..WCBS has a bigger bank of hits available to play..not just the same 500 songs over and over, like KRTH does.

You're right. WCBS has 488.

 

[davideduardo]

(David Eduardo) You know that when CBS has its famous specialty shows, they are in dayparts when nearly nobody listens either to them or to radio at all. Those CBS specialty shows are intended to reduce the criticisms of the change to mostly 70's music by appearing to play other stuff... you sure bought this little CBS head game big time!!!!
If nobody or few listened to the shows, why are they airing them then??

Stations put specialty shows, as I have said several times before, in Saturday and Sunday nights as well as early Sunday morning because they can get away from having a lousy part-timer on. In the case of CBS, they also create an image of beeing deep and variety filled without putting any of the stiffs on in dayparts that matter.

The theory works, as they sure sucked you in big-time.

There is hardly any audience for any station in those times, where radio usage is at its very lowest. So the time is throw-away time, and you can try odd things or run syndicated stuff and not worry about jocks.

The Sunday night countdowns already feature "this week" in the 70's or 80's or 60's, so why would they be playing "other stuff". They still play 60's and some late 50's daily..so not all is lost or "criticized"

Huh? That makes no sense.

Just admit it..WCBS has a bigger bank of hits available to play..not just the same 500 songs over and over, like KRTH does.

As Back has said (I can call you "Back" for short, can't I?), its 488 regular rotation songs on CBS... give or take a dozen or so songs each week.

Again, the difference between the two is 2500 miles. NY is not LA. CBS would not work in LA, and KRTH would not work in NY.

 

[oldies76]

Fine, WCBS has 488 songs in its rotation and KRTH has 502. Ok, a difference of 14.

I realize NY is not L.A. and vice versa, but CBS knows how to present their music correctly. I don't live in either city, but I know what songs and hits existed and WCBS is showing how music should be played with the selection they have...whether or not...it's within their rotation. They go above and beyond the ordinary!

I am talking about total songs played...total access, not just the "everyday" songs. They are accessing the "music library", which is not the daily rotation.

KRTH just plays it songs from within it's rotation, which for what you're telling me..is fine for L.A.
Their weekends are from the rotation, KRTH nights are from the rotation, 7's at 7 are from the rotation.

And maybe this selection works for L.A. now and that's fine with me. But I will tell you one thing, the listeners there are being deprived of some really, really good songs and frankly, it's unfortunate and sad!

And I know what your going to say..L.A. only likes certain tested songs and those are the only ones that will be heard. Well if that's the case, then....good for them. We know better and alot of listeners know better. I have heard lots of complaints on tight playlists from KRTH, especially some years back and those people are tired and sick of it and want changes!

This debate can go on forever and in circles, but it won't change my mind on which station has a better presentation and selection of songs from the past!

And until KRTH decides to break out of the 502 song loop and go above and beyond, WCBS will appeal at anytime..not just the Sunday night slot!! I was not "suckered" into that timeslot..I listen anytime of day, the countown is a bonus!

Adios!

 

[airpab]

oldies76-

I'm with you on the tight playlist thing. K-EARTH is still too tight. They were really bad a few years ago so believe it or not, they've gotten better.

I think we both think that radio is no longer a creative, from the gut medium anymore. The old KHJ, KFRC, WABC, etc...all had programmers that broke songs and put them in rotation because they felt in their gut, that it would be a hit...sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong...but that's what made radio back then, kind of unpredictable and very fun. Today, it's all research and all boredom. What's frustrating about it is that research can't possibly cover the possibilities for an Oldies/Classic Hits format.

There are 1000's of songs that could be played (that aren't) and people would go..."Oh yeah, I love this song, haven't heard it forever".....How do you research that in a 100 person focus group? No matter what, in music radio, success always comes down to the music. If you're playing stuff that people want to hear (or stuff that people don't even know they want to hear...if that makes sense?)...then people will tune int and you've got a winner!

CBS and K-EARTH both sound good, but they could stand to be more aggressive musically...for sure!

 

[davideduardo]

The old KHJ, KFRC, WABC, etc...all had programmers that broke songs and put them in rotation because they felt in their gut, that it would be a hit...sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong...but that's what made radio back then, kind of unpredictable and very fun. Today, it's all research and all boredom.

New adds are picked exactly the same way today that they were 40 years ago... by feel, the trades, competitve station play, etc.

What's frustrating about it is that research can't possibly cover the possibilities for an Oldies/Classic Hits format.

Why would research... meaning asking listeners to hear a song and score it... not be able to do what is intended for oldies or classic hits?

There are 1000's of songs that could be played (that aren't) and people would go..."Oh yeah, I love this song, haven't heard it forever".....

No, there are not. Every song from the 50's and 60's and 70's and 80's has been tested. Stations know, among the songs from the era they cover, what ones are playable.

One thing you find out quickly is that a song that tested horribly a few years back will not improve with age... it actually gets less and less playable.

How do you research that in a 100 person focus group?

Songs are not researched in a focus group. And focus groups never have 100 persons... 10 to 12 is the general maximum. See http://www.davidgleason.com/Radio Research.htm for an explanation and pictures of a music test.

Songs are tested in a meeting room setting. Respondents either have an electronic dial or a paper score sheet, and hear the hooks from as many as 600 songs in a 2-hour session. If we want to test more songs, we have them come back a second night for more of the same.

No matter what, in music radio, success always comes down to the music. If you're playing stuff that people want to hear (or stuff that people don't even know they want to hear...if that makes sense?)...then people will tune int and you've got a winner!

That is exactly what music research tells you. In a PPM world, you make the mistakes in the test, not on the air.

CBS and K-EARTH both sound good, but they could stand to be more aggressive musically...for sure!

Look for both to tighten their lists as the PPM returns to NY in October and arrives in LA on the same date.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

I think we both think that radio is no longer a creative, from the gut medium anymore. The old KHJ, KFRC, WABC, etc...all had programmers that broke songs and put them in rotation because they felt in their gut, that it would be a hit...sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong...but that's what made radio back then, kind of unpredictable and very fun.

I can only speak about WABC's early Top 40 days 1961-1970 when I listened to them. After 1961 or so, I don't remember them breaking more than 1 or 2 songs a year. WINS and WMCA were the breakers those days, later on WOR-FM broke quite a few hits. WABC would always lag way behind their competition and only added a song when they were reasonably sure it was safe to do so.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

I think we both think that radio is no longer a creative, from the gut medium anymore. The old KHJ, KFRC, WABC, etc...all had programmers that broke songs and put them in rotation because they felt in their gut, that it would be a hit...sometimes they were right and sometimes they were wrong...but that's what made radio back then, kind of unpredictable and very fun.

I can only speak about WABC's early Top 40 days 1961-1970 when I listened to them. After 1961 or so, I don't remember them breaking more than 1 or 2 songs a year. WINS and WMCA were the breakers those days, later on WOR-FM broke quite a few hits. WABC would always lag way behind their competition and only added a song when they were reasonably sure it was safe to do so.

WABC (under Rick Sklar)and KHJ & KFRC (in the Drake days) were NOTORIOUSLY slow to jump on new music. Those stations were methodically programmed and the station playlists were a FRACTION of what you'd find on KRTH or WCBS FM today. It sometimes humors me to hear people say "the station doesnt play enough songs" or "you play the same songs over and over" and then in the next breath, wish we could be "more like KHJ or WABC" musically.

 

[oldies76]

There are 1000's of songs that could be played (that aren't) and people would go..."Oh yeah, I love this song, haven't heard it forever".....

(DavidEduardo)

No, there are not. Every song from the 50's and 60's and 70's and 80's has been tested. Stations know, among the songs from the era they cover, what ones are playable.
Look at WLNG..small market..yes, but they are doing it..Maybe not literally thousands but way more than KRTH or WCBS combined. And I'm sure their are other stations like them that are trying.

Stations can play more, if their hearts desire, risky...could be, but it can be done!!! Never say Never, why not give it a try?? IF WLNG can play lots of songs, then others can too. Small markets that is...

 

[SuperRadioFan]

WABC (under Rick Sklar)and KHJ & KFRC (in the Drake days) were NOTORIOUSLY slow to jump on new music. Those stations were methodically programmed and the station playlists were a FRACTION of what you'd find on KRTH or WCBS FM today. It sometimes humors me to hear people say "the station doesnt play enough songs" or "you play the same songs over and over" and then in the next breath, wish we could be "more like KHJ or WABC" musically.

All good points. I remember WABC used to play the #1 song just about every single hour, usually around 5-10 minutes after the TOH. It got sickening and I usually found myself switching to WIBG Philadelphia. Sometimes, nighttime DJ Hy Lit would not even play the #1 song on the WIBBAGE Top 99 because he wanted to get newer songs on. Especially if the #1 song was more MOR i.e. "Everybody Loves Somebody". But WIBG stopped playing "Satisfaction" after it was #1 for its 4th or 5th consecutive week. They usually didn't keep a song at #1 for more than 3 weeks tops. Quite different from NYC stations.

So by playing "My Girl" 4-5 times a day, KRTH did emulate those days of WABC!

 

[BACKnUSSR]

WABC (under Rick Sklar)and KHJ & KFRC (in the Drake days) were NOTORIOUSLY slow to jump on new music. Those stations were methodically programmed and the station playlists were a FRACTION of what you'd find on KRTH or WCBS FM today. It sometimes humors me to hear people say "the station doesnt play enough songs" or "you play the same songs over and over" and then in the next breath, wish we could be "more like KHJ or WABC" musically.

All good points. I remember WABC used to play the #1 song just about every single hour, usually around 5-10 minutes after the TOH. It got sickening and I usually found myself switching to WIBG Philadelphia. Sometimes, nighttime DJ Hy Lit would not even play the #1 song on the WIBBAGE Top 99 because he wanted to get newer songs on. Especially if the #1 song was more MOR i.e. "Everybody Loves Somebody". But WIBG stopped playing "Satisfaction" after it was #1 for its 4th or 5th consecutive week. They usually didn't keep a song at #1 for more than 3 weeks tops. Quite different from NYC stations.

So by playing "My Girl" 4-5 times a day, KRTH did emulate those days of WABC!

Don't get the impression it was a BAD thing. The reason WABC played the #1 record so often was that the audience wanted to hear it. It should be noted that the WABC chart had very little to do with the Billboard or Cashbox charts.
It was based on their audience research, which (albeit much more primitive than what we can learn today) determined how much airplay a record would receive.

Although WIBG was a fine station (as was WFIL), a weird thing about WABC in the mid 60's was...it did pretty well in Philly too.

 

[oldies76]

Going back to the original subject:

I'd love to hear "Scorpio" by Dennis Coffey (1972) on KRTH. WCBS played it today (another one of those "above & beyond" songs). A great, funky upbeat instrumental from the early 70's. Great stuff!!!

 

[BACKnUSSR]

Going back to the original subject:

I'd love to hear "Scorpio" by Dennis Coffey (1972) on KRTH. WCBS played it today (another one of those "above & beyond" songs). A great, funky upbeat instrumental from the early 70's. Great stuff!!!

Are you listening to WCBS online perhaps??
They play a lot of that instrumental stuff to cover up spot breaks...its NOT on the air.