560

[davideduardo]

A chunk of Rush's success in Sacramento was that he wasn't named Morton Downey, Jr. There's no guarantee he would have done as well anywhere else in America after getting blown out of KMBZ.

Another chunk of Rush's success was that he was very close to his affiliate stations. He gracefully recorded promos and liners and actually asked about how his show was doing.

I first dealt with Rush at WDSR in Lake City, FL, which is a tiny market west of Jacksonville and south of Valdosta and east of nowhere. We were organizing a "Rush to Lunch" at a local restaurant that set aside its meeting room for tables of local businessmen and professionals who had lunch, listened to the show, and commented on it.

Rush did a "welcome" recording they ran before the show and several "Hello Lake City and all my North Florida friends" variants. He had less than 100 affiliates when we did that.

 

[Doctor_Technical]

Another chunk of Rush's success was that he was very close to his affiliate stations. He gracefully recorded promos and liners and actually asked about how his show was doing.

I first dealt with Rush at WDSR in Lake City, FL, which is a tiny market west of Jacksonville and south of Valdosta and east of nowhere. We were organizing a "Rush to Lunch" at a local restaurant that set aside its meeting room for tables of local businessmen and professionals who had lunch, listened to the show, and commented on it.

Rush did a "welcome" recording they ran before the show and several "Hello Lake City and all my North Florida friends" variants. He had less than 100 affiliates when we did that.

As the engineer for KFON-AM in Austin TX -- and as a very-lonely conservative in the 512 -- I was tasked with interviewing RHL III for the station's "you get a free talk with Rush for affiliating" segment. Rush was kind with me as I mostly gushed out "gee, you're famous" softballs. It was not my best moment in radio but I did learn to stick to engineering, hah.

 

[fybush]

Jumping back to 560 (this is a thread about 560 🤣), one of the things I do as a station broker is to help new entrants to get a realistic sense of what it would cost to operate a station they're looking at.

I obviously don't have any proprietary information about 560, but I can make some good guesses about what a bare-bones operation would look like.

We know rent is expensive in the Bay Area. Could you get by without a physical studio? Legally, yes. With a modern automation system, you could originate programming from anywhere and run your station from the cloud for a few hundred dollars a month. You still need at least some hardware at the transmitter end to monitor and connect to that cloud-based automation. That's a few thousand in immediate expenses. You'll also need some sort of traffic software and licenses for other business software (accounting, invoicing, etc)

Are you playing any music at all, even as bumpers? You need to pay the rights agencies, probably into the four figures a month.

You're probably looking at a few thousand a month in power bills. You can't avoid that.

You need a stream and a website and a social media presence. That's a few hundred a month for the technology - but who's actually providing content?

So now we're into staffing and that's where operating 560 really starts adding up in costs. Nobody works cheap in the Bay Area, nor should you be asking them to. At a bare minimum, you need a full time operations manager/GM, at least one sales person (but probably more!), at least a contract engineer on retainer (plus a lawyer and an accountant and HR!) and if you're going to have programming that's compelling for listeners who have plenty of other choices, you need programmers and talent. And how are people going to find you? You need someone to do promotions and marketing and social media.

Figure 8-10k a month for every FT staffer you hire. And unlike the big clusters, you're a standalone station and you can't spread those expenses across multiple stations.

Then you have FCC regulatory fees, local taxes and business fees, insurance, and, oh yeah, we haven't paid tower rent yet!

Realistically? The lowest you MIGHT be able to go here, with no physical studio and maybe 3 FT staffers, is probably an outlay of $40-50k a month, for a bare-bones operation that's not generating much original content.

Can you make that much back in ad sales, if you're commercial, or in underwriting if you're not?

Do you have the cash to pay all those bills from day one while you wait for an audience to find you so you have something to sell to advertisers?

If not, how fast do you run out of money and have to shut down again?

If you're a rich person doing this for fun, is half a million dollars worth it to you if you're not bringing in income for your first year?

And if by some dumb luck or super clever strategy you DO find something new that works, what's your plan for when iHeart or Bonneville copy your brilliant new format on one of their FMs?

I realize this makes it sound like owning a radio station is a fool's errand. It's not - but under different circumstances, it certainly can be done. You just have to do it in less competitive and less expensive markets, ideally where you can acquire an existing station that isn't starting you from scratch.

This is also why nobody would take something like 560 "as a donation." It's a pretty expensive donation!

 

[TheBigA]

This is also why nobody would take something like 560 "as a donation." It's a pretty expensive donation!

I worked with someone who got a station as a "donation" and it didn't take long to build up about a million in debt. I think they had 5 employees. But some construction expense because they just got the license and transmitter. No tower. No studio. No transmitter site. They've been on the air a while and are now even deeper in the hole.

I always say the most important part of this discussion should be about money. But the bulk of these 1000 posts is about format.

 

[michael hagerty]

Jumping back to 560 (this is a thread about 560 🤣), one of the things I do as a station broker is to help new entrants to get a realistic sense of what it would cost to operate a station they're looking at.

I obviously don't have any proprietary information about 560, but I can make some good guesses about what a bare-bones operation would look like.

We know rent is expensive in the Bay Area. Could you get by without a physical studio? Legally, yes. With a modern automation system, you could originate programming from anywhere and run your station from the cloud for a few hundred dollars a month. You still need at least some hardware at the transmitter end to monitor and connect to that cloud-based automation. That's a few thousand in immediate expenses. You'll also need some sort of traffic software and licenses for other business software (accounting, invoicing, etc)

Are you playing any music at all, even as bumpers? You need to pay the rights agencies, probably into the four figures a month.

You're probably looking at a few thousand a month in power bills. You can't avoid that.

You need a stream and a website and a social media presence. That's a few hundred a month for the technology - but who's actually providing content?

So now we're into staffing and that's where operating 560 really starts adding up in costs. Nobody works cheap in the Bay Area, nor should you be asking them to. At a bare minimum, you need a full time operations manager/GM, at least one sales person (but probably more!), at least a contract engineer on retainer (plus a lawyer and an accountant and HR!) and if you're going to have programming that's compelling for listeners who have plenty of other choices, you need programmers and talent. And how are people going to find you? You need someone to do promotions and marketing and social media.

Figure 8-10k a month for every FT staffer you hire. And unlike the big clusters, you're a standalone station and you can't spread those expenses across multiple stations.

Then you have FCC regulatory fees, local taxes and business fees, insurance, and, oh yeah, we haven't paid tower rent yet!

Realistically? The lowest you MIGHT be able to go here, with no physical studio and maybe 3 FT staffers, is probably an outlay of $40-50k a month, for a bare-bones operation that's not generating much original content.

Can you make that much back in ad sales, if you're commercial, or in underwriting if you're not?

Do you have the cash to pay all those bills from day one while you wait for an audience to find you so you have something to sell to advertisers?

If not, how fast do you run out of money and have to shut down again?

If you're a rich person doing this for fun, is half a million dollars worth it to you if you're not bringing in income for your first year?

And if by some dumb luck or super clever strategy you DO find something new that works, what's your plan for when iHeart or Bonneville copy your brilliant new format on one of their FMs?

I realize this makes it sound like owning a radio station is a fool's errand. It's not - but under different circumstances, it certainly can be done. You just have to do it in less competitive and less expensive markets, ideally where you can acquire an existing station that isn't starting you from scratch.

This is also why nobody would take something like 560 "as a donation." It's a pretty expensive donation!

Thanks, Scott. I’ve been hoping someone would show up with some real-world cost estimates.

 

[fybush]

Thanks, Scott. I’ve been hoping someone would show up with some real-world cost estimates.

It's very, very approximate. I know what software and hardware cost. There are a lot more what-ifs when it comes to personnel expenses, especially in the Bay Area. And we don't know at all what the tower lease situation looks like.

 

[michael hagerty]

It's very, very approximate. I know what software and hardware cost. There are a lot more what-ifs when it comes to personnel expenses, especially in the Bay Area. And we don't know at all what the tower lease situation looks like.

If anything, you’re probably guessing low.

 

[davideduardo]

Jumping back to 560 (this is a thread about 560 🤣), one of the things I do as a station broker is to help new entrants to get a realistic sense of what it would cost to operate a station they're looking at.

I obviously don't have any proprietary information about 560, but I can make some good guesses about what a bare-bones operation would look like.

Add in that any sales you make will be cut by seller commissions and, if from an agency, agency commissions as well. And if they were to get any national sales, add in the rep firm commission.

While it is impossible to estimate the cost of sales for individual stations as seller commissions vary and the percentage of agency vs. direct sales are different, we can say that the cost of sales takes about 20% off the top.

Of course, the "big guys" in every market with higher rates may pay lower seller commissions, but nothing changes agency and rep firm cuts.

 

[TheBigA]

And we haven't even mentioned INSURANCE. Property, liability, employee medical, etc.

 

[davideduardo]

And we haven't even mentioned INSURANCE. Property, liability, employee medical, etc.

Scott did have "insurance" in his list, but in larger markets where litigation is most common, every kind of insurance is very expensive.

I believe Scott's estimate on employee costs included Social Security employer contributions, medical insurance and maybe things like 401k matches.

 

[fybush]

Scott did have "insurance" in his list, but in larger markets where litigation is most common, every kind of insurance is very expensive.

I believe Scott's estimate on employee costs included Social Security employer contributions, medical insurance and maybe things like 401k matches.

It did, but was probably an underestimate, especially in the Bay Area where everything costs more including people.

 

[K.M. Richards]

I always say the most important part of this discussion should be about money. But the bulk of these 1000 posts is about format.

But that does enter into the equation, because the programming would have to be something that attracts advertisers or those thousands upon thousands of dollars in expenses might as well be used to make a bonfire.

But the point is well taken ... and I'm about to use my favorite denigrating phrase again:

Armchair quarterbacks with no knowledge of the business will pretty much always come up with an idea that is destined to fail if implemented. People actually in the business know this and would never in a million years implement any of those ideas.

I mean, there's a reason why my primary reputation is in programming Classic Hits. It's one of the formats that has the best chance of succeeding if done right.

 

[ILOVERADIO]

Most Bay Area techie-types (many of whom tend to be left-leaning, I believe), wouldn't be caught dead listening to radio at all, especially on AM.

They all seem to prefer to use their phones for pretty much everything possible.


That's actually an interesting idea!

I don't have the skills or experience to do such a thing myself, but I might know of some people who do.

I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult for someone with the know-how to throw together a basic proof of concept.

c

I listen to both radio and podcasts on my phone and Alexa. I wonder what the breakdown is between phones
set to AM/FM vs phones set to podcasts and music.

 

[K108 Sacramento]

There are dreams







Sorry about the dog.

There are dreams and then there are delusions.











Sorry about the dog.

Thanks. Tongue in cheek yes delusional no. Lol.

 

[K108 Sacramento]

But that does enter into the equation, because the programming would have to be something that attracts advertisers or those thousands upon thousands of dollars in expenses might as well be used to make a bonfire.

But the point is well taken ... and I'm about to use my favorite denigrating phrase again:

Armchair quarterbacks with no knowledge of the business will pretty much always come up with an idea that is destined to fail if implemented. People actually in the business know this and would never in a million years implement any of those ideas.

I mean, there's a reason why my primary reputation is in programming Classic Hits. It's one of the formats that has the best chance of succeeding if done right.

Have you made your first million yet from the 80s channel? How big is your audience? Is it over a million yet?

 

[K108 Sacramento]

That would be me. I say that all the time.

And KRKE does also stream its programming, and we include the same local advertisers' spots on the stream. It's called multi-platform.

And it positions us to continue operating even as terrestrial radio fades away.

Nice try at discrediting me, but I have to point out that many more have tried to do so, and I am still here, I am not "resting on my laurels" and I still get paid for what I do. In fact, I am programming KRKE because the station owner -- who I had worked with before -- asked me to program that station. He has since added a retainer to my monthly compensation to consult all of his stations in the state of New Mexico.

You will not win an argument here if I am on the opposite side of it, and I politely suggest you drop your pipe dream of an idea and start working to understand the reality of today's radio business.

KM, Today's radio business is quite good for the C suite executives and hopefully you too.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Have you made your first million yet from the 80s channel? How big is your audience? Is it over a million yet?

I'm not trying to make a million. I am comfortable financially and my expenses are far below my income.

I also don't care how many or how few listeners I have, as long as the station makes money selling advertising based on whatever audience we have.

Mostly, I'm just happy still doing what I love and getting paid to do it.

 

[cc333]

@K.M. Richards Good for you!

It's nice to have a decent income that pays your bills with a good, comfortable margin for saving, investing, etc., especially nowadays.

And to make it even better, you get to do something you enjoy!

c

 

[davideduardo]

Have you made your first million yet from the 80s channel? How big is your audience? Is it over a million yet?

Please check how many stations in the whole country have a cume of a million or more. It takes the combination of a very large market and very successful station to get that kind of cume.

 

[brettbutlerisok]

Jumping back to 560 (this is a thread about 560 🤣), one of the things I do as a station broker is to help new entrants to get a realistic sense of what it would cost to operate a station they're looking at.

I obviously don't have any proprietary information about 560, but I can make some good guesses about what a bare-bones operation would look like.

We know rent is expensive in the Bay Area. Could you get by without a physical studio? Legally, yes. With a modern automation system, you could originate programming from anywhere and run your station from the cloud for a few hundred dollars a month. You still need at least some hardware at the transmitter end to monitor and connect to that cloud-based automation. That's a few thousand in immediate expenses. You'll also need some sort of traffic software and licenses for other business software (accounting, invoicing, etc)

Are you playing any music at all, even as bumpers? You need to pay the rights agencies, probably into the four figures a month.

You're probably looking at a few thousand a month in power bills. You can't avoid that.

You need a stream and a website and a social media presence. That's a few hundred a month for the technology - but who's actually providing content?

So now we're into staffing and that's where operating 560 really starts adding up in costs. Nobody works cheap in the Bay Area, nor should you be asking them to. At a bare minimum, you need a full time operations manager/GM, at least one sales person (but probably more!), at least a contract engineer on retainer (plus a lawyer and an accountant and HR!) and if you're going to have programming that's compelling for listeners who have plenty of other choices, you need programmers and talent. And how are people going to find you? You need someone to do promotions and marketing and social media.

Figure 8-10k a month for every FT staffer you hire. And unlike the big clusters, you're a standalone station and you can't spread those expenses across multiple stations.

Then you have FCC regulatory fees, local taxes and business fees, insurance, and, oh yeah, we haven't paid tower rent yet!

Realistically? The lowest you MIGHT be able to go here, with no physical studio and maybe 3 FT staffers, is probably an outlay of $40-50k a month, for a bare-bones operation that's not generating much original content.

Can you make that much back in ad sales, if you're commercial, or in underwriting if you're not?

Do you have the cash to pay all those bills from day one while you wait for an audience to find you so you have something to sell to advertisers?

If not, how fast do you run out of money and have to shut down again?

If you're a rich person doing this for fun, is half a million dollars worth it to you if you're not bringing in income for your first year?

And if by some dumb luck or super clever strategy you DO find something new that works, what's your plan for when iHeart or Bonneville copy your brilliant new format on one of their FMs?

I realize this makes it sound like owning a radio station is a fool's errand. It's not - but under different circumstances, it certainly can be done. You just have to do it in less competitive and less expensive markets, ideally where you can acquire an existing station that isn't starting you from scratch.

This is also why nobody would take something like 560 "as a donation." It's a pretty expensive donation!

All of this and maybe more, I'm still curious why the programing on KNBR 1050 didn't move either to 560 or 810 and keep KFSO as it was. Tells me there may be a problem at the tower site and it's just not worth it to fix.