WHY HAS 690 FAILED TO SHOW ?

[Lopaka]

I recall when doing some research a while ago that XELO was originally in Tijuana on 1190kc, high powered, and removed to Ciudad Juarez as a result of ruinous interference to KEX. The time frame was the later 1940's, I have always wondered what it did to KSDJ 1170.

XEMO a border blaster? For as long as I have known about it, XEMO has been 5kw; I'd be interested to know any specifics as a border blaster.

XEAK supposedly began its 50kw incarnation as a rocker on a day in 1957 when the US was conducting its first and only Conelrad national test, meaning Mighty 690 was the only non-Conelrad programming available that day--quite a coup. Until that time it had been XEAC, at 5kw, owned by George Rivera, residing in Chula Vista. As always, I welcome updates and corrections.

 

[OldGringo]

I recall when doing some research a while ago that XELO was originally in Tijuana on 1190kc, high powered, and removed to Ciudad Juarez as a result of ruinous interference to KEX. The time frame was the later 1940's, I have always wondered what it did to KSDJ 1170.

XEMO a border blaster? For as long as I have known about it, XEMO has been 5kw; I'd be interested to know any specifics as a border blaster.

XEAK supposedly began its 50kw incarnation as a rocker on a day in 1957 when the US was conducting its first and only Conelrad national test, meaning Mighty 690 was the only non-Conelrad programming available that day--quite a coup. Until that time it had been XEAC, at 5kw, owned by George Rivera, residing in Chula Vista. As always, I welcome updates and corrections.

I was not familiar with this early XELO history. I have a pretty extensive collection of Radex, White's and Broadcasting from that era, and when I get back from Miami I will check them. I only have with me scans of Radex through the early 30's, and there is no Mexican on 1190 in 1933 and only one in Aguascalientes on 800 at that time.

XEMO, util last year, was always a 5 kw non-D as far as I know.

Once I check my library, I will let you know what the lists say.

 

[zumahans]

Re: I hate to break up this lemur love fest

David, I really respect your standing, why fight it out with verbal darts?

Because he cannot admit an error. His interpretation of market rules is mistaken. So what? It means nothing unless he hammers people over the head, repeatedly, with his mistaken interpretations. Which he does.

And if he hammers me with errors, he is going to get a response.

"Fox 6 San Diego" is not in the San Diego market - the most blatant. He's made 5-6 similar, though less egregious, errors in this thread alone.

BTW, I typed XEMO and I meant XELO. My error.

 

[OldGringo]

Re: I hate to break up this lemur love fest

David, I really respect your standing, why fight it out with verbal darts?

Because he cannot admit an error. His interpretation of market rules is mistaken. So what? It means nothing unless he hammers people over the head, repeatedly, with his mistaken interpretations. Which he does.

Where are "Market rules" written? You are blowing smoke... markets for radio are defined by Arbitron, based loosely on the OMB list of MSAs and CMSAs.

 

[zumahans]

Now wait a minute: Arbitron DOES says XEPRS is a San Diego market station!

Where are "Market rules" written? You are blowing smoke... markets for radio are defined by Arbitron, based loosely on the OMB list of MSAs and CMSAs.

OK. I accept that, you are right.

And to prove you are right, look at http://www.arbitron.com/radio_stations/mrs.htm :

Says Arbitron:
----->Radio stations must meet applicable Minimum Reporting Standards in order to be listed in Arbitron's Radio Market Report and other Arbitron services.

----->To meet MRS for Arbitron services, a radio station or a Total Line Reporting combo must meet all three of the following criteria (Persons 12+, Monday-Sunday, 6AM-Midnight) in the applicable report period:
----->At least five minutes of listening within a quarter-hour in 10 Metro diaries, and
----->.495 Metro Cume Rating, and
----->.05 Metro Average Quarter-Hour (AQH) Rating.

David, would you be so kind as to check if the Double X Sports Radio, XEPRS/1090, Rosarito, B.C., Mex., is listed in Arbitron’s Radio Market Report for San Diego?

Now, if XEPRS qualifies under Arbirtron criteria to be included in Arbitron’s Radio Market Report for San Diego...

...and if David Edurado just said that “markets for radio are defined by Arbitron” ...

... then Arbitron says XEPRS is a San Diego station, and David Eduardo agrees.

With me.

XEPRS is a station in the market of San Diego.

 

[OldGringo]

Does Arbitron consider XEPRS to be in the San Diego market?

Arbitron does not "consider" stations to be in any market.

As mentioned before, Arbitron uses a concept of "above the line" and below the line. Below the line stations are those in other markets which, by default, have not indicated that they are primarily trying to serve other markets.

Arbitron only allows each station to be "home" for above the line listing to one market.

A good US example is that of KLYY which is physically located in the Riverside market but which has chosen to try to serve LA by thier own choice. So they filled out a form with Arbitron indicating that they are "home" to LA, and will, thus, be below the line in the Riverside / san Bernardino market.

In the case of XETRA, they have chosen to be considered home to the LA market. But, since they have no numbers anywhere, they do not show up above or below the line.

 

[zumahans]

I'll rephrase the question:

Is XEPRS in the San Diego market book?

Is XEPRS "above the line" in the San Diego book?

Is there an asterisk that says it is not a San Diego market station?

Does XEPRS meet the definition used by Arbitron for a market report station is San Diego?

You know, the time may be neigh for you to graciously say something hard.

Here are some choices, pick one:

(a) You might be right, Zuma.

(b) I may have an older, out-of-date definition.

(c) Perhaps hard and fast rules don't work in unusual markets, like one bifurcated by an international boundary.

Or, you can continue to diminish your stand and prestige, by continuing lame arguments, equivocations, and reframing the argument in defense on a losing point.

You lost this argument. Swallow and move on.

 

[OldGringo]

Re: Now wait a minute: Arbitron DOES says XEPRS is a San Diego market station!

From http://www.arbitron.com/radio_stations/mrs.htm :

----->Radio stations must meet applicable Minimum Reporting Standards in order to be listed in Arbitron's Radio Market Report and other Arbitron services.

----->To meet MRS for Arbitron services, a radio station or a Total Line Reporting combo must meet all three of the following criteria (Persons 12+, Monday-Sunday, 6AM-Midnight) in the applicable report period:
----->At least five minutes of listening within a quarter-hour in 10 Metro diaries, and
----->.495 Metro Cume Rating, and
----->.05 Metro Average Quarter-Hour (AQH) Rating.

David, would you be so kind as to check if the Double X Sports Radio, XEPRS/1090, Rosarito, B.C., Mex., is listed in Arbitron’s Radio Market Report for San Diego?

Now, if XEPRS qualifies under Arbirtron criteria to be included in Arbitron’s Radio Market Report for San Diego...

...and if David Edurado just said that “markets for radio are defined by Arbitron” ...

... then Arbitron says XEPRS is a San Diego station, and David Eduardo agrees.

With me.

You have got it all wrong. Arbitron uses "above the line" and "below the line" to determine home market and non-home market. Arbitron does not care about the location of the transmitter, just whether a station meets the MRS you have detailed.

There are a number of LA stations which do not meet MRS requirements in LA: of 75 commercial signals licenced to the market, only 44 "make the book" by meeting MRS.

MRS has nothing to do with which market, in your terms, a station is "in."

WGN meets MRS in 14 different markets. The fact it shows in the Dubuque, IA, market with a 1.5 share does not make WGN a Dubuque market station. It just means that two things have happened. First, the signal reaches Dubuque. Second, there are people in Dubuque who care to listen.

There are, in fact, several hundred US stations meet MRS in more than one market. This does not mean that any station has moved or is "in" those additonal markets. All it means is that the signal and the programming are adequate to show up in additional markets.

WFAN gets a lower share in New York (MSA) than in 9 other separately measured markets. This does not mean that WFAN has suddenly moved to be "in" Newburgh, danbury, Bridgeport, New Haven or any of the other places it has a higher share than New York.

And Arbitron lists WFAN "below the line" in these other markets that are not a part of the New York MSA. However, if WFAN decided to tell Arbitron that it was "home" to Sag Harbor, it would be below the line in New York City, whether the transmitter is there or not.

Showing in a market does not mean the station is "in" that market.

And the MRS issue is totally unrelated to any of this. All the MRS means is that Arbitron will not list any station in any market unless it has a certain number of diaries and listening, whether it is "in" that market or not. As I said, there are 21 LA stations that are "in" the LA market that are not listed in Arbitron because they do not have enough listening to meet MRS and, thus, are considered to statistically have no audience.

In fact, in the Spring, 2006, LA ratings, 214 stations had diary mentions (excluding satellite) and only 44 of the commercial ones met MRS. 21 are LA stations, and the rest are either no-show non-coms or signals originating in other markets.

So the MRS issue has nothing to do with where a station is, but, rather,w ith how much listening it has.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Now wait a minute: Arbitron DOES says XEPRS is a San Diego market station!

Sigh.

This is really sad.

----->You have got it all wrong. Arbitron uses "above the line" and "below the line" to determine home market and non-home market. Arbitron does not care about the location of the transmitter, just whether a station meets the MRS you have detailed.

Bingo! Arbitron, which you yourself said sets the definition of a radio market, does not care about the location of the transmitter! It cares about the location of the audience!

----->MRS has nothing to do with which market, in your terms, a station is "in."

It is used as the definition of a radio market, I just posted that from the Arbitron web site.

This is just so sad. A proud and successful gentleman just cannot admit he made a mistake.

The WFAN and WGN examples are not corollary at all. We are not talking about XEPRS showing up in more than one MRS. We are talking about XEPRS showing up in its home market, San Diego. Does it?

You just said Arbitron defines markets, a decision that I have discovered the FCC agrees with. In fact, Arbitron is the official arbitrator of markets for the U.S. government.

And Arbitron defines a station's market on whether a station shows up in that market's MRS.

XEPRS shows up in the San Diego Market Report, above the line, thus it is by FCC, and your own (reasonable) definition a San Diego market station.

Kind sir, save your remaining dignity. This is demeaning to both of us.

 

[OldGringo]

I'll rephrase the question:

Is XEPRS in the San Diego market book?

It meets MRS requirements for San Diego.

Is XEPRS "above the line" in the San Diego book?

XEPRS has elected not to appear as home to Tijuana, and home to San Diego. It can not appear as home in the Tijuana Arbitron. As I mentioned, each station must chose one market it chooses to serve. This does not mean the staiton is "in" the market as there are no standards for claiming "home" status. An LA station could claim it is home to Anchorage, so meaningless is the distinction.

Is there an asterisk that says it is not a San Diego market station?

Actually, it now has brackets ( <<market name>> ) to show it is not really in the market. Since there are no printed books any more, Arbitron uses bracketing in the station roster to show in makret and out of market stations.

Does XEPRS meet the definition used by Arbitron for a market report station is San Diego?

MRS does NOT mean "market report station." It means "minimum reporting standards." Any staiton with a combination of a certain number of diaries and a certain amount of listening time meets MRS. Those that do not, whether in or out of the market, do not. As mentioned, WGN in Chicago meets MRS in 14 different markets. KFI meets or has met in the last year, MRS minimum requirements in 9 markets.

You know, the time may be neigh for you to graciously say something hard.

Here are some choices, pick one:

(a) You might be right, Zuma.

(b) I may have an older, out-of-date definition.

(c) Perhaps hard and fast rules don't work in unusual markets, like one bifurcated by an international boundary.

Or, you can continue to diminish your stand and prestige, by continuing lame arguments, equivocations, and reframing the argument in defense on a losing point.

You lost this argument. Swallow and move on.

Since you got the definiton of MRS wrong, totally wrong, absurdly wrong, and are using it to make a case to which MRS does not even apply, my answer to all your items is NO.

Again, the MRS defines whether a station has enough listening in a market to have its numbers in that market published in that market's Arbitron report. It does not matter at all whether the station is "in" the market or not.

KGO in San Francisco appears in the Bend, OR and Medford, OR books. This is due to the fact KGO has enough listening there to qualify for the minimum reporting standards and is thus listed. KGO is not "in" Bend.

 

[zumahans]

This is really sad.

I'm not going to pick a crusty old guy any more.

Today.

 

[OldGringo]

Re: Now wait a minute: Arbitron DOES says XEPRS is a San Diego market station!

----->You have got it all wrong. Arbitron uses "above the line" and "below the line" to determine home market and non-home market. Arbitron does not care about the location of the transmitter, just whether a station meets the MRS you have detailed.

Bingo! Arbitron, which you yourself said sets the definition of a radio market, does not care about the location of the transmitter! It cares about the location of the audience!

No, Arbitron does not care, beyond meeting Minimum Reporting Standards, where the audience is. It simply reports on each market's listening, irrespctive of where the signal comes from.

MRS defines the minimum amount of diary mentions and listening that qualifies a station for appearing in each market report. In gneral terms, a staiton needs around a 0.2 to 0.3 share 6 AM to Midnight, to appear in a book. The term is "in the book" if a staiton meets MRS, which is very different from "in the market."

----->MRS has nothing to do with which market, in your terms, a station is "in."

It is used as the definition of a radio market, I just posted that from the Arbitron web site.

Absolutely wrong. MRS determines whether a station, in or out of the market, is "in the book." MRS has nothing to do with the "status" of the station.

MRS was implemented to eliminate statistically insignificant data for stations with little popularity in each market, but with a couple of diary mentions, from being included in the old printed book or in the eBook.

You can actually see the data on stations with mentions but which do not meet MRS requirements in Maximiser. As mentioned, there are over 160 stations with LA MSA mentions that do not meet MRS, but are listed in Maximiser. LA does not have 214 radio stations "in" the market.

The WFAN and WGN examples are not corollary at all. We are not talking about XEPRS showing up in more than one MRS. We are talking about XEPRS showing up in its home market, San Diego. Does it?

A station DOES NOT SHOW UP in an MRS. MRS is a standard for "making the book" in each market. MRS is a criteria, not an object. It does not mean "Market Report." It is a statistical "cut off" that determines who is in the book and who is not, and has nothing to do with where a signal comes from.

You just said Arbitron defines markets, a decision that I have discovered the FCC agrees with. In fact, Arbitron is the official arbitrator of markets for the U.S. government.

Arbitron defines RADIO markets by a combination of listening, the OMB definitions and the vote of market stations. Arbitron does not define markets. It defines Radio Markets. They are almost always, in fact, different from TV markets and, in many cases, from the OMB definition.

And Arbitron defines a station's market on whether a station shows up in that market's MRS.

No, no, no, no.

MRS is not what you are interpreting it to be. "Minimum Reporting Standards" is the criteria by which Arbitron qualifies for inclusion "in the book" no matter where the station is. If WABC from NY gets enough San Diego listening to meet MRS for the San Diego MSA, WABC will show "in the book" because it has statistically reliable audience levels.

XEPRS shows up in the San Diego Market Report, above the line, thus it is by FCC, and your own (reasonable) definition a San Diego market station.

Showing up in a book does not move a radio staiton. KFI has a big share in San Diego, and meets MRS. It shows in the book. But it is not "in" the San Diego market.

Kind sir, save your remaining dignity. This is demeaning to both of us.

You are just totally and dead wrong. You are basing an argument that says a station is "in" a market if it shows up in the ratings. By that standard, XETRA is not in any market. There are plenty of staitons in San Diego County that do not meet MRS, and are not in the book. But they are in the market. And there are quite a few stations that are not in the market that meet the MRS standards and are thus in the book.

 

[OldGringo]

This is really sad.

I'm not going to pick a crusty old guy any more.

Today.

It's tough when you have to lie about the meaning of MRS to make a point.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

David you said: "If WABC from NY gets enough San Diego listening to meet MRS for the San Diego MSA, WABC will show "in the book" because it has statistically reliable audience levels."

Two questions:

Question #1) Taking this to an extreme with the advent of more and more OTA stations streaming, is it possible that IF a station like WABC (or any station that streams and has a large listenership) had a huge Internet audience in markets far far away from their home market -- say in San Diego --- and enough Arbitron diaries showed listenership to qualify and be reported in a Trend or a Book, is it possible that they would be reported with ratings numbers or would they be omitted because the audience in San Diego could only have been listening over the Internet?


Question #2) If you are on Univision time while you are here (or some of the time you are here), do your superiors know about your prolific activity here? (or are you related to the hierarchy of Univision and that's how you can -- heh heh - get away with this??) Inquiring minds (not just mine of course) want to know!! ;D

 

[OldGringo]

David you said: "If WABC from NY gets enough San Diego listening to meet MRS for the San Diego MSA, WABC will show "in the book" because it has statistically reliable audience levels."

Two questions:

Question #1) Taking this to an extreme with the advent of more and more OTA stations streaming, is it possible that IF a station like WABC (or any station that streams and has a large listenership) had a huge Internet audience in markets far far away from their home market -- say in San Diego --- and enough Arbitron diaries showed listenership to qualify and be reported in a Trend or a Book, is it possible that they would be reported with ratings numbers or would they be omitted because the audience in San Diego could only have been listening over the Internet?

Good question. If the WABC stream gets by the MRS cutoff in the SD survey, the station will be in the book. Arbitron does not presently distinguish between off-air or on-line listening, so the credits apply to WABC 770 AM.

Arbitron registers as "radio listening" satellite and internet. The only things they edit out (or simply do not tabulate) are TV and unrelated items.

Arbitron will be adding further instructions to the diary soon, to clarify listening "source" and to make sure satellite and internet listening is understood as part of radio listening.

From Arbitron:
Effective with the Fall 2006 survey, the instruction page on the inside of the diary cover is modified to incorporate Internet/satellite instructions. These changes include a modification to the language describing the term “listening,” as follows:

“Listening” is any time you can hear a radio station—whether you choose the station or not. You may be listening to a radio on AM, FM, Internet or satellite. Be sure to include all your listening.

In addition, the instruction “If you listen over the Internet or to a satellite radio service, please include the station name or channel number” is added following the instruction “Write the call letters, dial setting or station name. If you don’t know, write down the program name.” References to “Internet” and “satellite” are added to the checklist and sample appearing on the inside cover of the diary.

Arbitron tested revised Internet and satellite instructions during Winter 2006, Phase II. The results indicate that the revised instructions help improve the quality of entries and remind diarykeepers to record their listening to Internet and satellite radio. With these improved instructions, we expect the volume of satellite entries to rise and the quality of entries to improve. We will review the content of these entries over a period of surveys to better inform and enhance our edit rules.

In Winter 2007, Arbitron will conduct a test of new diary designs that will allow listeners to more easily report satellite and Internet listening and HD Radio, along with AM/FM entries. Arbitron is also making systems changes that will allow the reporting of satellite, HD2 channels and Internet-streamed terrestrial radio as separate stations with their full Station Name in Arbitron’s desktop software programs.

Question #2) If you are on Univision time while you are here (or some of the time you are here), do your superiors know about your prolific activity here? (or are you related to the hierarchy of Univision and that's how you can -- heh heh - get away with this??) Inquiring minds (not just mine of course) want to know!! ;D

Hahaha. I spend nearly every week travelling. A lot of the work is in the field, where I am monitoring listener research. It is pretty easy to post while doing this, while sitting in airports, offline while on flights, and on my own time. As it is, I work pretty long hours, and the breaks to participate in this board talke very little of that time (yesterday started getting into a cab at 4 AM and ended at 1:30 AM the next day after processing a music test).

 

[zumahans]

It's tough when you have to lie about the meaning of MRS to make a point.

Pathetic.

Just pathetic.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Now wait a minute: Arbitron DOES says XEPRS is a San Diego market station!

David Edurado defines markets: "markets for radio are defined by Arbitron."

Says Arbitron: (from http://www.arbitron.com/radio_stations/mrs.htm): "Radio stations must meet applicable Minimum Reporting Standards in order to be listed in Arbitron's Radio Market Report and other Arbitron services.

Asks Zuma: "Is XEPRS in the San Diego market book?"

Answers David: "It meets MRS requirements for San Diego." He cannot bear himself to say yes, but the answer is yes. XEPRS meets Arbitron MRS standards, and thus, is in the San Diego Market by the Arbitron definition that David himself said was the defining rule.

There you have it.

XEPRS qualifies under Arbirtron criteria to be included in Arbitron’s Radio Market Report for San Diego, and is in fact considered to be an "above the line" San Diego market station by Arbitron.

XEPRS is therefore, inescapably, a station in the market of San Diego. It's a rimshot, transmitting from another market, another city, another nation. But it's in the San Diego Market.

By David's criteria.

By Arbitron criteria.

By FCC market criteria.

By client list.

By sports contract affiliation ("Rosarito Padres," anyone?)

By listenership.

By it's self-identity.

By the newspaper.

By the Broadcasting Yearbook.

By common sense.

By everyone except this sad, sad figure, who cannot admit he painted himself into a corner.

XEPRS is in the San Diego ratings book, and therefore, by the Old Gringo's definition, in the San Diego market.

Period.

David, all the rest is equivocations, and frankly, embarrass you, sir.

David strikes out like a sad old man at me, and accuses me of lying about the Arbitron definition. I posted it directly from the Arbitron web site that I cited.

No lies, no interpretation, no spin. Just quotes from David and Arbitron.

This is a sad and pathetic case .... a sad man who cannot face the fact he was wrong.

 

[OldGringo]

Re: Now wait a minute: Arbitron DOES says XEPRS is a San Diego market station!

David Edurado defines markets: "markets for radio are defined by Arbitron."

Says Arbitron: (from http://www.arbitron.com/radio_stations/mrs.htm): "Radio stations must meet applicable Minimum Reporting Standards in order to be listed in Arbitron's Radio Market Report and other Arbitron services.

Asks Zuma: "Is XEPRS in the San Diego market book?"

Answers David: "It meets MRS requirements for San Diego." He cannot bear himself to say yes, but the answer is yes. XEPRS meets Arbitron MRS standards, and thus, is in the San Diego Market by the Arbitron definition that David himself said was the defining rule.

There you have it.

Have what?

Meeting the MRS only means a station quialifies for the book in a particular market. As I mentioned, there are stations that meet the MRS in as many as 14 markets.

A station from anywhere, as long as it gets about a 0.2 to 0.3 share, meets the MRS for any specific market. A New York station that meets MRS in San Diego is "in" the SD book. That does not mean that the NY station is located in San Diego.

Meeting MRS says nothing about whether a station is in a market, or out of it.

XEPRS qualifies under Arbirtron criteria to be included in Arbitron’s Radio Market Report for San Diego, and is in fact considered to be an "above the line" San Diego market station by Arbitron.

XEPRS is therefore, inescapably, a station in the market of San Diego. It's a rimshot, transmitting from another market, another city, another nation. But it's in the San Diego Market.

By David's criteria.

By Arbitron criteria.

By FCC market criteria.

By client list.

By sports contract affiliation ("Rosarito Padres," anyone?)

By listenership.

By it's self-identity.

By the newspaper.

By the Broadcasting Yearbook.

By common sense.

By everyone except this sad, sad figure, who cannot admit he painted himself into a corner.

XEPRS is in the San Diego ratings book, and therefore, by the Old Gringo's definition, in the San Diego market.

KFI is in the San Diego book. KLVE has been in it off and on for 12 years. KNX appears. KLYY is in the SD book.

About 15 stations licensed in SD County do NOT appear. Are they no longer in San Diego?

Period.

David strikes out like a sad old man at me, and accuses me of lying about the Arbitron definition. I posted it directly from the Arbitron web site that I cited.

Meeting MRS minimums has nothing to do with being in a market.

 

[zumahans]

You said Arbitron's definition of a market was the defining definition.

I gave it to you. You lost.

Your sad, overwritten responses are just so much blubbering larded with jargon, incorrectly applied.

You lost, you made a mistake, and are too full of yourself to let it go.

Let it go, old gringo. Let it go.

 

[zumahans]

Re: Now wait a minute: Arbitron DOES says XEPRS is a San Diego market station!

XEPRS qualifies under Arbirtron criteria to be included in Arbitron’s Radio Market Report for San Diego, and is in fact considered to be an "above the line" San Diego market station by Arbitron.

XEPRS is therefore, inescapably, a station in the market of San Diego. It's a rimshot, transmitting from another market, another city, another nation. But it's in the San Diego Market.

Now he's stealing my material.